July 4, 1776 – March 21, 2010 219-212
[Tombstone added by DRP, having stolen borrowed it from Jim Lynch.]
USA RIP
Posted by Yorkshire on 21 March 2010, 9:49 pm
Filed under 2010 Election, Culture and Society, Defecate Spending, Disdain For The Public, Express Bus To Socialism, Freedom from Reality, Humor - The Joke's on Us, Politics, Solutions By PROGRESSIVES, Transparency????, Tyranny
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Does this mean that you’ll be emigrating?
This will be a good place for everyone to make their predictions. List concrete things that will happen as a result of this, one, two, five years from now. Let’s look back and judge the guesses.
One year: Lots of new Republicans in the House and Senate. They got elected on promises to repeal the law. A year from now, there’s not much support for the idea of repealing it.
Two years: A report of the effect of the new law is widely criticized by the Right, but no one can believably disprove the numbers.
Five years: The first Republican takes credit for the law in a speech. Says the changes he fought for are the real reason for the successes.
This is as clear evidence of anti-patriotism as I’ve seen. Good job stabbing your country in the back!
All hail Nancy! All praise to Obama!
Ain’t this something? Our first black president passes healthcare.
One thing I can’t figure; I clearly heard Nancy say on the tube that the final was 220 for — and it looked to me like all Dems were accounted for at 219 — did some Repub vote yes? The news I read at my time ~11pm still say 219.
Nang: unless we win veto-proof numbers in 2010, or filibuster proof numbers and a Republican president in 2012, the bill can’t be repealed, so your one-year thing really doesn’t work.
In two years, not much will have changed, because while tax increases — what the Democrats wanted in the first place — will have begun, the health care benefits portion won’t have kicked in. There will be some increases in private insurance premiums, because insurers will no longer be able to turn away people with pre-existing conditions, which will require the insurance companies to spread those additional costs over their entire customer base.
Beeb, she may have been counting herself: the Speaker normally does not vote unless the vote is required to break a tie.
Why didn’t you guys care when Bush initiated the demise of this country. Did you read the “Patriot” Act? I heard someone say, I think it was Greg Palast, “How would a Patriot act?” Here we are. Thanks for your help.
Why do you HATE it when social programs help people, yet you LOVE it when innocent people are slaughtered in other countries? Just curious, do you think they are human beings? Are you so removed from humane regard, in favor of your party’s perspective you’ve become ROBOTICANS? Sure seems like it! Tragic. The term “Ugly American” comes to mind. Though, not all Americans, just ones like yourselves, that don’t mind when people die, as long as it isn’t themselves or their own, that CAN afford healthcare.
I’m sorry, but, your perspectives are repulsive. You didn’t care about America when we violated nearly all of our Bill or Rights then, now it’s just the people that are dying from lack of health care that are going to be helped that you are pissed off over. You all are PIGS.
Blubonnet wrote:
Oink!
Says a scumbag who thinks the US is behind the 9/11 attacks on itself.
Yeah, the lunatic who shares your conspiratorial worldview … the guy who claims the 2000 and 2004 elections were “stolen” (but the claims behind 2004 are even “better”) … among other asininities … LMAO!!
To answer Nang: I se taxes going up for Corporations. Caterpillar said it will cost them $100M the first year for this. That will either raise prices in a recession, layoff more workers, or move offshore. One thing I know of Cat, is in York, PA the Union struck for a year over wages and classification (janitors were making nearly what machinists were) and when the strike was settled, CAT moved that plant to the Carolinas to a right to work state. 2,000 jobs lost. So, no idle threat there.
Insurance premiums will go up and put Americans paying more, or face punitive penalties from the IRS.
If Medicare isn’t fixed, doctors will drop patients.
Social Security is broke, Medicare is broke, Part D is broke, and the Progressives are deluded enough to believe another give-away program will make money. (tell me when to turn the laugh track off)
The deficit is through the roof, now it will leave the Stratosphere. The USA will lose its AAA rating and the cost of money will go up.
There’s nothing good that will come from this IMO. Those rejoicing, better be ready to pay higher taxes. Because if you believe we can spend more, and collect less, I have some land to sell you, but come at low tide.
And, when the Rich get taxed, the Rich will stop investing, and job creation will die.
All in all, it’s an incentive killing, job killing bill.
Reminds me of the scene from Centennial when the CO militia destroyed an Indian Village full of women, children, and old people. And the chief stood there waving a treaty. The promises you heard, will not be the promises delivered.
Also, in MD and NY a millionaires tax was started within the last two years. Net result, there are less Millionaires in NY and MD, they moved.
Progressives, you got your victory. Congratulations on your Pyrrhic Victory.
This is as clear evidence of anti-patriotism as I’ve seen. Good job stabbing your country in the back!
Well, let’s face it – whenever they criticise the government from now on, we need just remind them that they proclaimed the USA dead March 2010, and now have no basis on which to complain.
The deficit is through the roof, now it will leave the Stratosphere. The USA will lose its AAA rating and the cost of money will go up.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The numerous debt bombs in the US are going to go off regardless of health care reform.
All in all, it’s an incentive killing, job killing bill.
What do you care? You just proclaimed the US dead – how can you complain about what happens to the corpse?
Yorkshire: “And, when the Rich get taxed, the Rich will stop investing, and job creation will die.”
Top tax rate under Eisenhower and a Republican congress – 90%; top tax rate under Nixon – 70%. Top tax rate under Obama and a Democratic congress, after Bush tax cuts expire – 39%.
Remember back when all our millionaires went galt and all loyal Americans abandoned the country? No?
Progressives, you got your victory.
Actually, Yorkshire, many progressives think the Bill is pretty crap – it’s been compromised all to hell.
But (a) it’s better than nothing and (b) the hysterical moaning from wingnuts is sweet to the ears.
Just remember – you proclaimed the US dead March 2010. You will be reminded of this statement in the future…
Allow me to repeat this over here in this new thread:
“Our representatives in Congress voted last night to grant the freedom to enjoy good health, too long deprived from too many Americans. There are many of us who feel that the pursuit of good health is a basic right and that it is a rightful responsibility of government to assist those without the necessary means. This is the basic difference between us, based on personal philosophy, to which you and I have the same basic right. For differences like these, we rely on our democratic political processes to come to a solution, which has just occurred.”
And this:
My friend Joanne Cabry put it well in an e-mail I just received:
It isn’t the health care bill we Progressives wanted. But as Paul Krugman wrote on Feb 28:
An imperfect health care bill can be revised in the light of experience, and if Democrats pass the current plan there will be steady pressure to make it better ….It’s one we can accept and work and work to improve.
So here’s to Ted Kennedy who worked for all the excluded in American life and made health care the cause of his life.
And here’s to all of you who wrote letters to the editor and emailed and called and talked to legislators and neighbors.
Just keep those phone numbers and email addresses handy. We’ll be back when the 112th Congress convenes.
*********************************
Our aims in political activism are not, and should not be, to create a perfect utopia. What we seek is more simply to improve the quality of human life while at the same time respecting the natural environment which sustains it: Not a heaven on earth but a better earth on earth.
Paul Wellstone
Where’s the Jobs?
Where’s the death panels, Yorkshire? How long until we see those set up, given how confident you were in predicting them?
I love you crazy people. You realize that if you hadn’t been parroting this ridiculous “this is actually socialism! LOOK AT THE SIMLILARITIES!” nonsense, convincing yourselves that this psychotic strategy of demonizing the opposition was somehow both workable & sane, you might actually have succeeded in defeating the bill?
You realize that posts like this one are your biggest problem? I know you get all short of breath when you hear tea party people screaming at guys in wheelchairs, but most everybody sees tea party protests and says, “Wow, those people look insane. Whatever they’re for, I’m against it.”
If you would stop for a moment and realize this, it would help you achieve your goals, but fortunately for the good guys, you’re so high on your own rage that you’ll probably just start ratcheting up the rhetoric and calling Obama “Satan” or something awesome like that.
Conservatives, look at the bright side. Now that such a disaster has been passed, you’ll win all future elections, right?
Taxes will be higher, and health care will be crappier.
‘Nuff said.
Moo
Phoenician in a time of Romans:
Where’s the death panels, Yorkshire? How long until we see those set up, given how confident you were in predicting them?
Prove I ever said that Pho. Now you are talking out of your rectum.
Gotta be fair Pho. According to Google’s search of this site, Ropelight, John Hitchcock, Dana & Eric all predicted “death panels” (some of them repeatedly; some of them got into discussions explaining what a “death panel” would consist of, and were very confident). Yorkshire, however, did not use the phrase “death panel” in predicting anything. We cannot see into Yorkshire’s brain and know if he was just hedging his bets, or if he knew the whole “death panel” talking point was cynical, dishonest nonsense, though he certainly didn’t waste any keystrokes telling his fellow conservatives that they were wrong & making themselves look stupid.
cbmc:
Gotta be fair Pho. According to Google’s search of this site, Ropelight, John Hitchcock, Dana & Eric all predicted “death panels” (some of them repeatedly; some of them got into discussions explaining what a “death panel” would consist of, and were very confident). Yorkshire, however, did not use the phrase “death panel” in predicting anything.
Thank you.
Wonder if the Bill was written in Chinese for our financiers?
Gotta be fair Pho. According to Google’s search of this site, Ropelight, John Hitchcock, Dana & Eric all predicted “death panels” (some of them repeatedly; some of them got into discussions explaining what a “death panel” would consist of, and were very confident). Yorkshire, however, did not use the phrase “death panel” in predicting anything
Good enough. I apologise, Yorkshire – I’ll try to remember to twit just the aforementioned with this idiocy.
Phoenician in a time of Romans:
Good enough. I apologise, Yorkshire – I’ll try to remember to twit just the aforementioned with this idiocy.
Accepted.
Uncle Sam was betrayed by Democrat pretenders in Congress, the unworthy children of a bloodless despot. Today, the forces of darkness have cast a pall over the once green and bountiful land, and all the deadly clerks are set against the people. Shame and dishonor rule in the halls of government, while the once proud men of a free nation have been brought low and made to serve a false god. Envy and greed now rule the land.
Weep for the glory which has been stolen, then work to overthrow the tyrant and his sycophants.
^^^ see now there’s the insane, unhinged, unrooted-in-any-known-reality talk we’ve all come to know & love
Blu can call me a pig all she wants since she has always been a gender-specific dog with fleas and mange.
Perry wrote: ““Our representatives in Congress voted last night to grant the freedom to enjoy good health, too long deprived from too many Americans. There are many of us who feel that the pursuit of good health is a basic right and that it is a rightful responsibility of government to assist those without the necessary means. This is the basic difference between us, based on personal philosophy, to which you and I have the same basic right. For differences like these, we rely on our democratic political processes to come to a solution, which has just occurred.”
In other words, those cheated by nature have found a political way to offload responsibility for their personal problems on to others who have the misfortune to live within arm’s reach.
Eric quoted Blu and then responded:
” ‘Why do you HATE it when social programs help people, yet you LOVE it when innocent people are slaughtered in other countries? Just curious, do you think they are human beings? Are you so removed from humane regard, in favor of your party’s perspective you’ve become ROBOTICANS? Sure seems like it! Tragic. The term “Ugly American” comes to mind. Though, not all Americans, just ones like yourselves, that don’t mind when people die, as long as it isn’t themselves or their own, that CAN afford healthcare.
I’m sorry, but, your perspectives are repulsive.’
Moo ”
You tagged it Eric. There isn’t one of these lefties that sees itself as anything other than a boundaryless herd animal.
And if that is how they insist on seeing themselves, if that is what brings them joy and emotional satisfaction, someone will eventually ask why others would not be justified in viewing them the same way.
In any event, ways of breaking down their new system will soon become apparent. One way might be to deliberately overload it. The trick in the meantime will be to place some barrier in the way of their expanding appropriative activities, until such a crisis can be induced in the working of their machine, and its collapse brought about.
DNW: “In other words, those cheated by nature have found a political way to offload responsibility for their personal problems on to others who have the misfortune to live within arm’s reach.”
We paid for your illegal wars, your war criminals’ profiteering, and the Bush administration’s unprecedented spending and government expansion… You had your fun. Now, pay for our health care.
Who knows, maybe some of the children that are saved will grow up to be soldiers and kill lots of foreigners for you, later.
Where’s my $2500 savings BO promised now.
Sorry, but abortion is government-paid now, that means no children will be saved but more will be butchered. (And Executive Orders do not supersede laws, ever, under any circumstances.) And remember, Obama voted for the continued legal practice of putting live-born babies on shelves to die when he was an IL Senator. That is a cold, hard fact.
Stupak was wrong about the need for his meddling, and he was wrong that his meddling had any possibility of fixing it, even if it was a real problem. He didn’t have a leg to stand on, and the executive order was just to shut him up, in a moderately face-saving way.
And it looks like you believe one of the last-ditch road blocks actually meant something. I hope you didn’t believe it all.
Sad quote from Slacktivist today:
“This is America, after all, and the great thing about living here in America is that there are no consequences for telling goofy, impossible lies or for offering dire predictions that are quickly proved untrue. I could spend the next year screaming “socialism” and “totalitarianism” and “death panels” and “Armageddon” and staking my entire reputation on outlandish claims that would quickly turn out to be demonstrably false. I could be proven wrong — proven exuberantly, deliberately, destructively wrong — and it wouldn’t matter. I wouldn’t have to apologize or explain or correct myself or change in any way. This is America. There are no consequences for being exuberantly wrong.”
219-212 with Stupak and others who are “saving face” through an unconstitutional EO on the 219 side. If they were real, it would’ve been 219-212 the other way. And Stupak just got himself a lot of attention he did not want.
Nangleator writes:
Glad to see that you are finally coming out of your closet and dropping the “collective dependency by nature” stupidity you had been trying to peddle as fact earlier.
Those roads and water “analogies” were woefully inept, and your having dropped them as points of argument should clarify matters a good deal.
Your new and bold assertion that I owe you basically just because you exist, and that you intend to pervert the political system and use the power of government to collect, is more in line with the traditional claims of your kind.
Now the rest of us just have to figure out the best ways to deal with it.
Since money over lives seems to be your priorities, consider that more healthy people will be, can be, WANT to be more productive citizens.
I’m sorry (sort of) for calling you PIGS, you’re just delusional.
Hube, do you have the balls to actually LOOK at the evidence on 9-11-01? Nah, I didn’t think so. Have you seen the enormous GROWING list of professionals with SCIENCE their ultimate guide? (And take note, all here, I didn’t bring it up.) Incidentally, another professional journal, one a sociology journal has recently devoted an entire publication on the delusional state of the Americans, with the obvious cartoon thrown at us, by our government regarding 9-11-01, with so much of the public, most, gheesh, eating it. Your state of denial is worthy of study by sociologists.
Open your eyes, Hube. We have been lied to. It’s more than obvious, for those that take their hands, off of their face, uncovering their eyes. Take note of the many categories of professionals, including many Republicans. This transcends party. Many military, in intelligence fields, pilots, and on and on and on. Show some guts. Stop cowering.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
I’m sorry, but these are facts.
This is just one of the most recent individuals:
Alan N. Sabrosky, PhD – Former Director of Studies, Strategic Studies Institute and holder of the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research, U.S. Army War College. A Marine Corps Vietnam veteran with 10 years of service. Graduate of the U.S. Army War College. Teaching and research appointments have included the United States Military Academy, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Middlebury College and Catholic University. While in government service, he held concurrent adjunct professorships at Georgetown University and the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). Writer and consultant specializing in national and international security affairs, lecturing widely on defense and foreign affairs in the United States and abroad. His published work includes thirteen books or monographs and over one hundred forty articles, chapters and book reviews. Author, co-author, or editor of Prisoners of War: Nation States in the Modern Era (1990), The Recourse to War: An Appraisal of the “Weinberger Doctrine” (1988), Alliances in U.S. Foreign Policy (1988), The Strategic Dimension of Military Manpower (1987), Polarity and War: The Changing Structure of International Conflict (1985), Great Power Games: The Sino American Power Transition (1982).
* Essay “Treason, Betrayal and Deceit: 9/11 and Beyond” 9/10/09:
“The official 9/11 Commission’s work and report were at best an incomplete exercise. Many people dismiss the findings of the Commission, and that includes its co-chairs [ Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton ]. Many others who utterly distrust the 9/11 Commission report, dismiss the US Government’s explanation of it, and point to both an official cover-up and an “inside job,” include veteran fighter pilots, EMTs (Emergency Medical Technicians), air defense experts, experienced commercial pilots, demolition experts, architects and civil engineers – none of them professions that inherently attract and retain the gullible and credulous.
Several things are very clear to me from a careful assessment of both official and critical evaluations of the 9/11 attacks. First, the striking aircraft alone simply could not have brought down either of the two buildings in the manner in which they fell, much less a third building which was not hit by a plane (I expect the one intended to do that as a “cover” had ended up in that Pennsylvania field), given the available physical evidence and a wealth of expert testimony. This means the attackers had assistance on the ground, and it had to have been active before the attacks occurred: preparing buildings for controlled demolition is not something done haphazardly in the midst of chaos.
Second, only two intelligence agencies had the expertise, assets, access and political protection to execute 9/11 in the air and on the ground: our CIA and Israel’s Mossad. Only one had the incentive, using the “who benefits” principle: Mossad. And that incentive dovetailed perfectly with the neo-con’s agenda and explicitly expressed need for a catalytic event to mobilize the American public for their wars, using American military power to destroy Israel’s enemies. Only the unexpected strength of the Iraqi resistance kept Syria and Iran from being attacked in the second Bush Administration. Thus, the evidential trail for 9/11 and the wars in Afghanistan & Iraq run from PNAC, AIPAC and their cohorts; through the mostly Jewish neo-cons in the Bush Administration; and back to the Israeli government. None of the denials and political machinations can alter that essential reality. Terms such as treason, betrayal and deceit do not overstate the case against them.
Finally, we need to take a hard look at why the mainstream media (MSM) have paid more attention to Sarah Palin’s wardrobe than they have to dissecting blatant falsehoods, discrepancies and inconsistencies in the US Government’s treatment of 9/11 and its aftermath. And the reason is that on this issue, all are on the same side, and the official line is the one they all prefer – “all” meaning the PNAC alumni who took over the Bush Administration’s national security apparatus and their counterparts in the Obama administration, AIPAC and the rest of the numerous Jewish PACs, the MSM owners and Israel.” http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23460.htm
You don’t think so? Oh, so first we have Phoeny who can see the future, and now here’s blu who knows what others have and haven’t done.
I’ve looked at the evidence, blu. And my conclusion is: You’re a freakin’ lunatic.
Ah, I knew it was only a matter of time before the Joooooooos were brought into this conspiratorial nuttery. So we can chalk up anti-Semitism to your more risible traits, eh blu?
Hmm, switch a few words around and it would be a treatise on how “progressives” behaved during the previous 8 yrs.
blubonnet, I’ve never taken a hard look at Truther theories, in part because I believe it was completely possible for a few suicidal nuts to recruit some friends, plan a few simultaneous hijackings, and finish like they did.
Here are some things I don’t understand. Were there hijackers or not? Does anyone claim the airplanes were empty? Because I knew someone on Flight 11 and she’s not around any more. Did someone take remote control of the planes the hijackers just intended to fly to Cuba? If the buildings needed to be set up with demolition charges, how did the ~60k people that worked in them not notice? For this ‘decoy’ plane, were the cell phone calls to loved ones real or faked? How come the attacks didn’t include more than four planes? How come there weren’t simple ‘attacks’ on power plants. Rolling blackouts would have increased panic, especially a few hours after coverage got going on every channel. How come the attacks were on symbols of capitalism, and not crowds of people? Sports stadiums or parades would have made much better targets.
No, you have it wrong. I value my freedom from your ability to attach, more than I value fulfilling your wants or “needs” for you under compulsion.
Let’s say, for example, that you are pre-diabetic and you won’t listen to your doctor and stop your scarfing down of pizzas, and candy bars. Or like the case my sister treated not so long ago, you eat three boxes of Popeyes’ fried chicken every day, and come into the emergency room with gangarene every few months; or get so fat that your legs start weeping fluid.
Now, I could try and get a law passed that limits us all – for to direct it at you in particular would be discriminatory – to one box of fried chicken a week, or that says we all have to wear monitors that record what we eat, and that if we violate the terms of our diet we can be sent to food reeducation camps.
But that is a life for a thing, and not a man.
And I suppose when it comes down to it, I would rather let Phoenician spend his time locked in his apartment making “love” to his cat, or you to spend your life eating chocolates and viewing conspiracy videos on the internet, than join you draped in chains that supposedly prevent me from doing some self-destructive and absurd thing I don’t want to do in the first place.
Does this help?
Well, well. Competent questions; especially the first one. You should have tried applying some of that critical sense to the propositions you put forth on collective dependency.
Hube, I posted something about how outrageous lies fly around without consequence in today’s politics and media, and you post back, “No! You!”
You remind me of the Mr. Boffo cartoon in which a man is leaning across the aisle of a stricken airplane, happily gloating at the people on the other side of the aisle and saying, “We’ve still got our wing!”
Yep, it comes out. Blu is a Jew-hater. That means blu is as worthless as the Jew-haters who threw human feces at my daughter. Thank you very much, blu, for outing yourself like that. I no longer have to pity you; I can now despise you for the Jew-hating racist you are. You truly are a mangy, flea-bitten, rabid female dog, blu. May you rot in Sheol.
Uncle Sam was betrayed by Democrat pretenders in Congress, the unworthy children of a bloodless despot. Today, the forces of darkness have cast a pall over the once green and bountiful land, and all the deadly clerks are set against the people. Shame and dishonor rule in the halls of government, while the once proud men of a free nation have been brought low and made to serve a false god. Envy and greed now rule the land.
Whereas torturing prisoners to death is just hunky dory…
Dana Pico:
Beeb, she may have been counting herself: the Speaker normally does not vote unless the vote is required to break a tie.
+++++++++++
No … appears I was confused by time-shifting, heard an older story after the last vote. One of the votes did come out 220-211 due to Rep Joseph Cao [R] of Louisiana voting with the Democrats. Maybe he was confused.
You tagged it Eric. There isn’t one of these lefties that sees itself as anything other than a boundaryless herd animal.
And if that is how they insist on seeing themselves, if that is what brings them joy and emotional satisfaction, someone will eventually ask why others would not be justified in viewing them the same way.
In any event, ways of breaking down their new system will soon become apparent. One way might be to deliberately overload it. The trick in the meantime will be to place some barrier in the way of their expanding appropriative activities, until such a crisis can be induced in the working of their machine, and its collapse brought about.
Shorter DNW: Kill the progressive cockroaches.
But that is a life for a thing, and not a man.
Well, I can see why it might appeal to a sad chronic masturbator such as yourself. The reason why people are repulsed by you? – it’s your personality, dear. You’re ugly right to the bone.
And, no, I’m still not going to go out with you no matter how much you flirt.
“Whereas torturing prisoners to death is just hunky dory…” in comrade Castro’s Cuban death camps, in the Hanoi Hilton, and in the twisted minds of Islamic terrorists. It’s the same torture inflicted by the National Socialist Worker’s Party and by the death squads in Uncle Joe Stalin’s GULAG Archipelago.
It’s the torture of people who think the ends justify the means, the ones who abuse process to rob the people of their rights. It is the way of tyrants.
“Whereas torturing prisoners to death is just hunky dory…” in comrade Castro’s Cuban death camps, in the Hanoi Hilton, and in the twisted minds of Islamic terrorists.
Well done, ropelight – that’s precisely the company with which the Bush Administration placed America.
Since I say you are not worth the cost of fellowship, you think I am ugly. You’re a lefty alright …
You remind me of the Mr. Boffo cartoon in which a man is leaning across the aisle of a stricken airplane, happily gloating at the people on the other side of the aisle and saying, “We’ve still got our wing!”
And the point being: what you posted is totally useless taken as a whole, since you apply it to only one side!! Great job, Nang! LOL!!
S’alright ropelight. Considering that New Zealand won’t even prosecute Maoris for torturing people because the gov. there doesn’t want to “offend” their mystical belief system, waterboarding a few hardcore Islamist terrorists for valuable intel doesn’t seem so morally repugnant now, does it?
Since I say you are not worth the cost of fellowship, you think I am ugly.
No, I think it’s the constant veiled calls to kill people and your repulsive personality that make you ugly, but do keep trying. Maybe one day you’ll get this “human” thing down pat.
In any event, ways of breaking down their new system will soon become apparent. One way might be to deliberately overload it. The trick in the meantime will be to place some barrier in the way of their expanding appropriative activities, until such a crisis can be induced in the working of their machine, and its collapse brought about.
You know, it’s fascinating. In Rand’s fiction, which DNW seems to admire, the heroes were all super-competant producers who bought the world to its knees by withdrawing their labour.
DNW obviously isn’t. The only way he can think to strike back is by becoming an even bigger burden on society than he is now.
So how’s November looking, gents? I see you still firmly believe in the efficacy of calling those whom you disagree Socialists and Nazis. It seems to be working terrific so far!
I also couldn’t help but notice that DNW hasn’t made any headway in making his Librulz-R-SICK thesis any more original or compelling. I’d suggest teaching the insidious traitors a lesson by Going Galt and taking his ultra-productive self off to a libertarian paradise like Somalia. At least they understand the value of tort reform!
Mike G, I predict the Dummycrats will lose both Houses come November. But that’s an easy prediction to make now. The difficult part will be to rescind this USA-killing atrocity.
Perry wrote:
Our Constitution enumerates our rights, notably “life, liberty (and) property,” as mentioned in the Fifth Amendment:
Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention a right to enjoy good health. What this bill will due is to take the property of some people, both without due process of law and without just compensation, to give to others to pursue this new “freedom” you have found, and to deprive us of the liberty to choose not to participate.
You told us here that:
even though the choice you would give her is over another person’s life. Yet the man who wrote that:
when such involves the actual life of someone else is perfectly willing to impose his solution on us when it comes to what you see as a general social good. You are willing to allow one person to be killed for the liberty of another, yet would sacrifice the liberty of some to produce some desired end for others. You would deprive us of the liberty to choose whether we would buy health insurance, because you think we just all should, and you would deprive many of us of our property to give to others. You labeled those of us who see the right to life as paramount “control freaks,” yet somehow fail to see the notion that the government can tell all of us we must buy health insurance as the exercise of control.
Of course, the liberty of which you would deprive us is life-long; we could never opt out of the health care system without leaving our country, while the liberty you see as so crucial for the woman who finds herself unwantedly pregnant would be compromised for only nine months. You find a temporary inconvenience for some people so terribly horrible that you would allow the sacrifice of someone’s life to avoid it, yet you will cheerfully impose a permanent burden on those who do not want it to achieve what you see as some great social good.
How do you plan on doing that, JH? More name-calling and boastful arrogance? Perhaps you could be more persuasive by getting DNW to explain to elderly Medicare patients how they’re despicable, sub-human vermin. Or better yet; threaten to kick college students off of their parents insurance or make seniors pay more for their prescription drugs. How about telling those with pre-existing conditions that, whoops, sorry, you’re no longer protected?
Gee guys, with a game-plan like that I don’t see how you could lose!
Hube wrote:
Interesting point. Furthermore, as I have noted in the past with citations and quotes from NZ gov’t legal sources, no act of Parliament in NZ can be said to be illegal, no matter what it is. Specific natural rights have no constitutional force under NZ law should Parliament declare otherwise.
Strange then, that a troll from that very place should imagine that his comments on a supposed American failure to live up to principles his nation does not even recognize as constitutionally conditioning and valid, should bear any weight.
Another case of Stalin lecturing the Pope on Catholic dogmas.
Actually and upon a moment’s reflections, to imply that he or any other collectivist nuisance really is doing anything other than haranguing, is probably overstating the case.
That’s a nice fish in that pic, Mike G. Who gave it to you?
GOD gave it to me, Hitchcock.
Well then, Mike G, quit demanding someone other than Providence give you your health care for free.
What this bill will due is to take the property of some people, both without due process of law and without just compensation, to give to others to pursue this new “freedom” you have found, and to deprive us of the liberty to choose not to participate.
Gee, Dana – I could have sworn the Constitution said:
What exactly does Article 1 say in the version you are reading?
Oh, and Shorter DNW – Uh, uh, damn, he has me pegged correctly, so I’ll engage in irrelevant nationalist bashing…
Dana Pico observed:
What does the left care about liberty? They wish to graze in your fields, and expect that you should be grateful for the opportunity to have them do so. Afterall, if they did not crop it for you, how would it ever grow?
Nice …
Well, if that’s what you need to believe about me in order to try and appear to have a point to make then so be it. I’ll pray for you while I’m jogging on my socialized sidewalk system. I’ll ask Jesus to give you the strength to rise above name-calling and cynicism.
Mike G:
How do you plan on doing that, JH? More name-calling and boastful arrogance? Perhaps you could be more persuasive by getting DNW to explain to elderly Medicare patients how they’re despicable, sub-human vermin. Or better yet; threaten to kick college students off of their parents insurance or make seniors pay more for their prescription drugs. How about telling those with pre-existing conditions that, whoops, sorry, you’re no longer protected?
Gee guys, with a game-plan like that I don’t see how you could lose!
Being from Iowa Mike you know the term separating the wheat from the chaff. Right now what is supposed to be the Democratic Party has been hijacked by the Progressives, the Far Left kooks, The very left leaning Liberals, and plain old fashion Democrats I knew growing up. And yes the same can be said of the Right. There are no monolithic parties called Democrats and Republicans, just special interests going right or left.
But at this point I would say that the Democratic Party of the 60′s and early 70′s that I knew, is gone. There are a few hanging around yet, but they have been fossilized. Right now, the far left controls the party, or those who are weak and are kow-towed into the herd.
About 15 years ago a radio commentator said it is very hard to resist the Siren Song of the Left. The Song is everything is easy, everything is free, just show up. I view this healthcare bill as such. Just check any personal responsibility at the door, because, from here it’s free. And the best example is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIkksi344cM
“How do you plan on doing that, JH? More name-calling and boastful arrogance? Perhaps you could be more persuasive by getting DNW to explain to elderly Medicare patients how they’re despicable, sub-human vermin. Or better yet; threaten to kick college students off of their parents insurance or make seniors pay more for their prescription drugs. How about telling those with pre-existing conditions that, whoops, sorry, you’re no longer protected?”
Geez, talk about arrogance LOL. Just because someone may think that you – as a moral type – are vermin, unworthy of unconditional fellowship, and due little more than toleration, there is no implication that by extension the judgment applies to everyone else.
Maybe what you are really looking for is best found in a church, rather than in a government.
Just because someone may think that you – as a moral type – are vermin, unworthy of unconditional fellowship, and due little more than toleration, there is no implication that by extension the judgment applies to everyone else.
Oh, well, I’m quite positive voters will understand the difference, DNW. I’m a firm believer in the persuasive powers of your grandiose metaphors.
The NZ Troll writes” … irrelevant nationalist bashing …”
You could of course simply admit that you have no written constitution, and that no New Zealand citizen – including ostensibly you – has any right to life, liberty, or property, that is safe should Parliament in any of its ordinary acts decide to abolish or limit the same.
You could do that. But then such an admission would cut you off at the knees as you tried to present yourself as an exponent of constitutional principle; rather than simply as a bitter troll haranguing Americans over an imperfect realization of natural rights, which his own government does not even recognize as constitutionally binding in law.
“Oh, well, I’m quite positive voters will understand the difference, DNW”
It’s too bad that you cannot MikeG.
Too bad that the wool sheds or whatever trauma it was that you said your forebears suffered, affected you so badly that the best characteristic of this country – liberty – should be so meaningless to you.
Maybe if you could dump some of that “baggage”, others would not view political association with you in those same terms.
I’m totally with you, DNW. I find the fact that you cannot translate your lofty rhetoric into election success or claim any legislative victories simply baffling.
Mike G:
How’s the Walleye site going? Quick chance to intro it here.
Yorkshire: Swimmingly. *duh* *dum* (I know, I know)
I’ll intro it when the LLC paperwork is done. Gotta get Big Bad Government to limit my financial and legal liabilities, ya know!
Mike G:
Yorkshire: Swimmingly. *duh* *dum* (I know, I know)
I’ll intro it when the LLC paperwork is done. Gotta get Big Bad Government to limit my financial and legal liabilities, ya know!
Ouch, that means lawyers. But I hope the site works well.
Also need to make sure my taxable income is visible so that DNW and John Hitchcock can get their Medicare Part D funded Viagra.
Nah, you can set up an LLC yourself with the right paperwork. It’s the most basic form of business entity next to a sole proprietorship.
Yawn. Yet another thread hijacked to promote Twooferism.
ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
Count me as proud to be an American. Despite the gibbering nonsense you guys spout, proudly clinging to a morally and intellectually bankrupt party lead by depraved idiots like Limbaugh and Beck, progress prevailed.
I mean, babbling about how America is dead? Ronald Reagan said America was the bomb after his dreaded Medicare was passed, and now Republicans vigorously defend Medicare (although some of that was just opportunistic attempts to scare seniors away from supporting reform).
Then again, you guys have drifted a long ways away from Reagan.
Americans are practical and compassionate, just like this bill. Babbling about TEH FREEDOM isn’t going to solve many problems. We’ve spent too much and gotten too little for the health care system we have, and others are cleaning our clocks. Socialism shmocialism, if there’s a better way of doing something, Americans want to copy it and do it that way. Sometimes the private market does some things best, sometimes collective action is needed.
This bill is a compromise, and when Democrats were talking about universal health care, Mitt Romney was bragging about his Massachusetts solution. Well, guess what? Same plan.
Why don’t you guys wipe the snot off of your noses, grow up and start acting like real patriots and quit crying over a little looking out for your fellow Americans. The constant contempt and hatred that comes boiling out of you guys at the thought of helping innocent Americans is pathologically repulsive.
You can keep trying to pretend you’re being robbed to pay for some shiftless bastard’s health care, but in most cases you’re helping the working poor and the middle class.
Just admit to yourselves you blew this effort, and Obama f’ing gamed you guys hard. Your radicalism made you easy to predict and your obstinate behavior made you easy to stand up against.
I guess you can ramp it up and see how acting twice as crazy works for you in November, or you can get used to a more compassionate America and try to work to make sure this effort is carried out efficiently and effectively.
Knowing you guys though, after the Bush years, you’ll continue to rant and rave against our democratic government at the behest of unaccountable private corporations. When you get in power again, you’ll try to stack the administration with cronies and nitwits, try running the system into the ground, and then screech to everybody that government doesn’t work.
The day you guys can do something like what Reagan did with Medicare and work to find solutions that will make government improve rather than endlessly demonizing it, you’ll be a mature party.
As it is, electing you guys again would be like giving a car to a twelve year old.
By the way, 9/11 truthers are idiot twats. Shut the hell up and quit embarrassing liberals, Blu. Stick to solid facts and sound arguments like a real liberal instead of that cockamamie horsetwaddle.
My advice, DNW, is to simply ignore the bleatings of the Internet static from NZ. I mean, why waste the time and effort on a complete loser?
You could of course simply admit that you have no written constitution, and that no New Zealand citizen – including ostensibly you – has any right to life, liberty, or property, that is safe should Parliament in any of its ordinary acts decide to abolish or limit the same.
You could do that. But then such an admission would cut you off at the knees as you tried to present yourself as an exponent of constitutional principle; rather than simply as a bitter troll haranguing Americans over an imperfect realization of natural rights, which his own government does not even recognize as constitutionally binding in law.
Shorter DNW: Damn – he’s figured out I am a sad chronic masturbator! Quick, try to distract people with irrelevant attempts at ad hominem based on my misstatements about NZ!
Being from Iowa Mike you know the term separating the wheat from the chaff. Right now what is supposed to be the Democratic Party has been hijacked by the Progressives, the Far Left kooks, The very left leaning Liberals, and plain old fashion Democrats I knew growing up
And, not only that, they hijacked those American voters who elected Obama as President. Oh, when will this perfidery end – that the Republic could be bought so low by an elected President and an elected legislature passing bills through the Constitutionally approved parliamentary process? Oh, the betrayal…
Geez, talk about arrogance LOL. Just because someone may think that you – as a moral type – are vermin, unworthy of unconditional fellowship, and due little more than toleration, there is no implication that by extension the judgment applies to everyone else.
Shorter DNW: Kill the progressive cockroaches.
Another swift nail in the repeal effort coffin.
Jeromy, I have one thing to say to you. You are a coward. You haven’t looked either. Otherwise you wouldn’t come off as such a fool, after having said what you said. Your ego is what you are trying to keep intact, not reality. Sad, a fellow Liberal, such an ignorant ass, you appear to be, supporting the corporate media meme, the defense industry “news”. Why is the Truth movement only getting bigger? People are catching on. One THIRD of the population now, AND GROWING! Why are there over 1100, AND GROWING architects and engineers calling fiction on the government? WHY DID MOST OF THE 911 COMMISSIONERS SAY IT WAS A COVER UP? Don’t be an coward, or an ignorant ass. As a Liberal, to a Liberal, I’d expect more objectivity from you. You will be shamefully embarrassed some day, if you don’t start GETTING IT. Look, for God’s sake. Study the link I left.
Blu, you showed your true colors earlier and I will not let you hide from your true colors. You are a Jew-hater. And you gave proof of that. You are a despicable human being and I have no pity for you whatsoever.
blu: no one with a brain looks at insane 9/11 truther nonsense. I know that once you’re all wrapped up in it, it’s hard to imagine that it isn’t all true. that’s how conspiracy theories work; people who think the moon landings were fake feel the same way about that as you do about absurd 9/11 theories. but no amount of “but this normally smart person agrees!” links will change how delusional you have to be to believe all that garbage. “objectivity” doesn’t even enter into it. 9/11 truthers = birthers. it’s the same sort of “prove this isn’t true!” non-logic crap. neither camp is respected by anybody whose respect is worthy of esteem.
John Hitchcock: “You are a Jew-hater.”
Suspecting Israel of a crime does not equal Jew hating.
That’s correct. However, when you suspect it (and Jews in general) of orchestrating an elaborate (and evil) scheme for which the evidence is scant to none, then you sound like a believer in National Socialism or a follower of Louie Farrakhan.
Eric writes:
It’s good advice. I’m just wasting my time pointing out the lies and inaccuracies of one character who propounds taxation interdependency fables, and a second who after consulting with his feline oracle’s posterior, bitterly defends the first guy’s (Nangleator’s) nonsense. These clowns are notorious, their methods are known, their motives demonstrated again and again.
What’s the point?
Might as well try reasoning with a schizophrenic off-meds as talking to a modern collectivist of any stripe.
That does leave us with another interesting political question though.
If experience demonstrates that argument and dialog are ultimately pointless with people who incessantly demand an ever increased level of legally mandated interpersonal and social attachment and obligation that you are unwilling to grant, what’s the next step?
amazing what elections mean.
Guess fighting 2 wars poorly, no WMD’s, cutting taxes for the uber rich and pissing away a surplus got you all in this mess.
Mission Accomplished.
You guys sucked so bad a black guy got elected and rammed healthcare down your asses. Now, look at how you are acting to this defeat. Damn right we are going to gloat.
Go ahead if it helps you deal with the catastrophic misery of being you. LOL
donviti:
You guys sucked so bad a black guy got elected and rammed healthcare down your asses. Now, look at how you are acting to this defeat. Damn right we are going to gloat.
I thought Race didn’t matter? Oh, it does if you’re a liberal.
Here’s what we got!
http://blogs.investors.com/capitalhill/index.php/home/35-politicsinvesting/1563-20-ways-obamacare-will-take-away-our-freedoms
I will remind you, cbmc, and JH, that IGNORANT is from the core word IGNORE.
You didn’t even take note of the credentials of just tone recent fellow that has spoken out. There’s a whole lot more of these folks, thousands. You all will have egg on your face, only it will be stinking for as long as it’s been there, by the time you realize it. I’m embarrassed for you.
Alan N. Sabrosky, PhD – Former Director of Studies, Strategic Studies Institute and holder of the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research, U.S. Army War College. A Marine Corps Vietnam veteran with 10 years of service. Graduate of the U.S. Army War College. Teaching and research appointments have included the United States Military Academy, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Middlebury College and Catholic University. While in government service, he held concurrent adjunct professorships at Georgetown University and the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). Writer and consultant specializing in national and international security affairs, lecturing widely on defense and foreign affairs in the United States and abroad.
cbmc, WE HAVE PROVEN IT (in numerous ways, all based on engineering science) but cowards, like your self won’t look.
I thought Race didn’t matter? Oh, it does if you’re a liberal.
it obviously does other wise you moron’s wouldn’t have Steele as the RNC President.
It’s good advice. I’m just wasting my time pointing out the lies and inaccuracies of one character who propounds taxation interdependency fables, and a second who after consulting with his feline oracle’s posterior, bitterly defends the first guy’s (Nangleator’s) nonsense.
I know your frustration. Have you tried typing LIBERTY in all caps and in increasingly larger font sizes? How about a rousing Cold War or WWII metaphor or a little more contempt for the electorate?
Emigration probably isn’t the solution, since we did that once already, and your kind still followed once it was safe enough. LOL
MikeG quotes and then responds:
To take the last question first: are you the sum of the electorate? It appears that you think so in a typical lefty confusion of mind known as the fallacy of composition.
Do I think that typing the name of a virtue, “liberty”, which you don’t understand and can’t aspire to anyway, in a larger font, will somehow make it more appealing to you?
No. As I have pointed out before about modern libs, You/liberty : dog/fiddle. You get the idea …
However that said, I will of course feel free to poke at your dry drunk friend as he raves on about bitches and ramming it up (or down as he puts it) asses as the culmination of his bitter political aspirations.
Yeah, great mentality you squibs have there. No wonder you have so much trouble attracting anyone competent who wants to associate with, much less share with, you.
As Ann Coulter said about liberals … well, you know that too, don’t you.
Emigration probably isn’t the solution, since we did that once already, and your kind still followed once it was safe enough. LOL
Yes, your libertarian paradise where labor was free. Nothing like the biggest market distortion of them all to hang your hat on.
To take the last question first: are you the sum of the electorate? It appears that you think so in a typical lefty confusion of mind known as the fallacy of composition.
Oh, is that what you need to think? That’s so cute. You keep telling yourself that, DNW.
Too bad your blustery rhetoric and posturing hasn’t worked out into any political currency for you. As things stand right now you’re just a bitter old crank hiding behind anonymity so he can empty his colostomy bag.
However that said, I will of course feel free to poke at your dry drunk friend as he raves on about bitches and ramming it up (or down as he puts it) asses as the culmination of his bitter political aspirations.
I don’t care.
btw, LOL? Really? OMG!
There ya go, DNW. Mike G just gave proof you cannot win. If you speak using intellectual language, you’re being a pompous elitist. But if you speak using the vernacular, you’re an idiot. Logic is wasted on these types for they have no time for logic. Speaking their language is wasted on them, for they have no time for contrary information.
Pearls and silk purses.
Speaking of dry-drunks, isn’t Glenn Beck on in some timezone, JH?
Don’t know, Mike. But soon enough your hero Olbermann will be on, so rest easy.
Don’t get cable, Hube. Sorry. You’ll have to go project your shortcomings onto someone else.
Oh, like this Mikey? Speaking of dry-drunks, isn’t Glenn Beck on in some timezone, JH?
I bet you’re well acquainted with shortcomings, Mikey!! LOL!
Mike G:
Speaking of dry-drunks, isn’t Glenn Beck on in some timezone, JH?
Mike, Mike, Mike, I mentioned over on IL if you watch Beck, your head will explode. So be careful, the Walleye need ya!
The Phoenician wrote:
It says exactly that. However, this isn’t a tax. Rather, the federal government is now requiring us to purchase, from a private company, something that some people don’t want to purchase.
Dana: “It says exactly that. However, this isn’t a tax. Rather, the federal government is now requiring us to purchase, from a private company, something that some people don’t want to purchase.”
Right, it is a tax to provide for the general welfare of the United States.
Nevertheless, it looks like the Repubs are now going to again depend on their activist SCOTUS to do some legislating from the bench, you know, back again to their mantra that the end justifies the means, like the recent Citizens United case that enabled more corporate money to further contaminate and corrupt our government.
Donviti wrote:
Of that, we have no doubt. And, quite frankly, y’all earned it: you won the 2008 election, and President Obama got through something very major that he promised.
Nor do I think it will ever be repealed. To repeal this would require that we seize control of both Houses of Congress, with a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, and send President Obama back to Chicago after one term. To be repealed, it will have to be repealed by early 2013, because it starts to take widespread effect in 2014, and that’s when a lot of people will start to become beneficiaries.
Now, arguing against this terrible legislation will win the GOP a lot of seats in the 2010 elections, but the odds that it will actually be repealed are vanishingly small. Medicare Part D was ridiculously over-expensive, should never have been passed, yet there is absolutely no plan or movement to repeal it. We can punish the Democrats who sold us down the river in the next elections, and we should do that, but the idea that we’ll get this repealed is not very realistic.
When asked the general question, should the government do something to reform our health care system, a solid majority of the American people agreed. What they disagreed with was what the Democrats planned to do, and did. But now that it’s passed, it’s passed, and I’m guessing that it will become more popular with the people now that it has been passed, even if they don’t really know what was done or appreciate how badly this is going to hurt our health care system and our economy.
Right now, the best that the Republicans can do is to minimize the harm that this legislation will cause by trying to push for things which will keep it from being quite as bad as it could be. The first thing is to push for legislation which would require doctors and hospitals to report people who come in for treatment who do not have valid insurance, because, after this takes effect, anyone who doesn’t have the insurance will be an illegal immigrant. To fight the huge drain on our health care system, we have to use this legislation to identify illegals who try to consume American health care services, and use that information to deport them. The vast majority of the American people will not want this new system, for which they are having to pay, being drained by people who should not be here, and who do not contribute to it.
Perry wrote:
Perry, it isn’t a tax at all; it is a forced payment to a private company. For it to be a tax, it would have to be a payment made to some level of government.
If the Court rules against this legislation, my guess is that the lever is the fact that this creates an imposed bill to a non-governmental company. To save our great country, it would be great if the Court threw the whole thing out, but I really don’t think that it will. The vast majority of this bill seems to be structured around areas in which the government already has exercised control, primarily regulation of businesses through the commerce clause. There may be something in there of which I haven’t heard which would be unconstitutional, but the only thing that seems obvious as a point of challenge is the mandate that individuals participate in private insurance. Even that could pass, because we have approved requiring people to purchase automobile insurance if they choose to own a car; the main difference is taht people can opt out of that by choosing not to own a car.
The solution to the mandate is to allow an opt-out.
It’s very simple: If you wish to opt-out, you must agree to pay for all your health costs the rest of your life out of pocket.
What you don’t have a right to do is game an insurance system by trying to avoid paying when you’re healthy. The insurance system should have the right to not accept those who would attempt to commit such trickery.
As it is, Americans will be compelled to do something absolutely each and every sane person who isn’t a multi-millionaire would want to do for themselves: possess health insurance.
Perhaps we can have another exclusion for immortal people. Otherwise, y’all simply aren’t thinking this through all the way. You may think you should be free to take a few years off from health coverage, but I doubt any of you would really be prepared to take that freedom to its logical extension.
Dana “Perry, it isn’t a tax at all; it is a forced payment to a private company.”
Point taken. I should have said “tax-like”, although it really is a mandate, like others we have had. True, unlike mandated auto liability insurance, one cannot opt out of the medical insurance mandate. However, mandates are common, like the Feds on the States, and there is no opting out, although these mandates do not mandate payment to a private company, though auto liability insurance mandate does do this.
Although this health insurance is a slightly different twist than the aforementioned versions in practice, I don’t see it as a significant departure where it suddenly becomes unconstitutional. We’ll probably see a SCOTUS decision on this issue, in time.
You guys sucked so bad a black guy got elected and rammed healthcare down your asses.
Now, now – I realise it’s difficult to follow the rhetoric if you don’t share their sexual neuroses, but I believe the correct fears are of a black guy ramming it down their THROAT, or UP their asses.
It says exactly that. However, this isn’t a tax. Rather, the federal government is now requiring us to purchase, from a private company, something that some people don’t want to purchase.
Alas, Dana, you’re moving the goal posts. Your original complaint was about
which describes every single tax. Except, you know, for the fact that it is under due process of law and all that.
As it is, I agree with you. Requiring people to subscribe to private insurers is a bad solution. Unfortunately, the obviously better alternative of a public option was thrown away because of Republican opposition. Your representatives screamed and whined for the bed, and now you’re complaining about being made to lie in it.
Can I suggest that you write to your Republican representatives and urge them to support reform of the Act, dropping the requirement for compulsory private insurance in exchange for a non-profit public option being offered?
Interesting idea, Jeromy, including Medicaid and Medicare, right?
The problem is that these young healthy people who opt out, will still be a drain on the system, since if they need medical care and cannot afford it, they will still be given treatment, at our expense. Therefore we cannot allow opting out.
I also think that the mandated coverage should be at least for catastrophic care, since provision of that if not covered by insurance would cost us all. I’m not sure what kind of mandated coverage is actually in the bill.
I like Phoenician’s idea even better!
Perry: That’s the deal though…Republicans have to explain why we should still care for these opting-out idiots who show up later needing health insurance.
I understand. You understand. But they want to say the mandate is unfair. So they should explain to me how they’re going to make an opt-out work that protects the right of the insurance industry to not get gamed if they accept people with previous conditions.
The Phoenician wrote:
If I actually had any, I would write them to ask for complete repeal.. Alas! The only thing I can do right now is to support, and financially contribute to, the campaigns of the Republican challengers for my representative in Congress and for the Senate seat coming up for re-election this November — and that I certainly intend to do.
As for the pubic option — typo was deliberate, since everyone who is actually a producer is going to get screwed — no, that’s the last thing I want. I do not want the government offering a health care plan, I do not want the government competing with the private insurance companies, I do not want government involved in this at all.
Jeromy nails it:
Yup, that’s exactly right: y’all see this as something good, y’all see this as wise behavior, so you will use the power of government to compel people to participate.
Now, I absolutely agree that it is wise to have health insurance; I disagree that we should compel people to do anything. You would trade freedom and liberty to obtain what you see as some social good; the Communists think exactly the same way.
And this might be precisely what the remedy will be if/when the SCOTUS has to decide on the constitutionality of requiring people to purchase a [private] product.
There is only Taco Bell. Salt is bad for you, hence illegal. Meat is bad for you, hence illegal. Cigarettes are bad for you, hence illegal. Sugar is bad for you, hence illegal. Body fluid exchanges cause disease, hence illegal. Abortion is illegal, but then so is procreation unless you get government approval first.
Actually, Hube, government-payer will become a reality if SCOTUS rules nothing in this anti-American, anti-freedom, anti-free-market monstrosity of a government take-over unconstitutional. The rules are now set up in such a way that every health insurance company will go out of business, and rapidly.
Indeed. It certainly seems that way as I fail to see how the insurance cos. will be able to maintain themselves with all these new mandates.
Dana: “I do not want the government offering a health care plan, I do not want the government competing with the private insurance companies, I do not want government involved in this at all.”
Dana, then your solution is?
You offer none, since you have no problem with millions of Americans uninsured, therefore at jeopardy regarding their health.
You offer none, since skyrocketing health care costs are not economically unhealthy for our country.
I am sure you are aware of these serious problems, but have no solutions, except to do nothing.
What good is that?
Perry, I’m certain when you see an empty car rolling toward a cliff that you jump in the driver’s seat and slam on the accelerator. But that’s not what I do.
Hube: “Indeed. It certainly seems that way as I fail to see how the insurance cos. will be able to maintain themselves with all these new mandates.”
This is a reasonable concern. They will benefit from having millions of new customers, many young and healthy, but they will also have to take on people with pre-existing conditions and they will not be able to drop people who get sick, causing them more expense. I suspect that no one knows where this will settle wrt premium costs over time.
If it turns out that premium costs continue to skyrocket, then we will have to make a mid-course correction, perhaps to something similar to the Swiss and their private insurer system, more government controlled than ours, or to single-payer operating without the profit piece included.
“Indeed. It certainly seems that way as I fail to see how the insurance cos. will be able to maintain themselves with all these new mandates.”
Is that why insurance stocks shot up after the bill was passed? You think investors were looking to get a piece of failure? Of course not. This bill handed the insurance industry thirty million new customers.
Mike G, you do not know how the stock market works. You do not know how the commodities market works.
John H.: “Perry, I’m certain when you see an empty car rolling toward a cliff that you jump in the driver’s seat and slam on the accelerator. But that’s not what I do.”
John, I don’t see it that way. Instead, I see HCR as saving money in the long run, by bending the cost curve, and by finally beginning to reform Medicare to reduce health care provider costs, to reduce fraud, and to further increase administrative efficiency. No administration or Congress so far, except this one, has been willing to step up to this car heading toward a cliff, by hitting the brakes! The CBO so far agrees.
Mike G, you do not know how the stock market works. You do not know how the commodities market works.
Well, maybe instead of telling you could actually try explaining for once. It’s part of formulating an argument. And if you could start by telling me what commodities markets have to do with health care I’d appreciate it. I need a good laugh to start out my morning.
Keep drinking that Kool-Aid, Perry. Medicare already pays less than doctors need to be profitable. Government interference always runs costs much higher than free-market. Adding multiple layers of bureaucracy adds more non-business-related costs and never streamlines anything. By the way Barack described his own car insurance business, I tend to doubt he knows which one is the gas and which one is the brake. When you have 10 years of taxes and 6 years of outlay, which do you think would come out ahead?
You could also humor me by explaining to us how you reconcile your VA lovin’ ways with your bitter contempt for unconstitutional, federally mandated programs.
Or is that “different”?
Learn a little about how stock and commodities markets work and then come back, Mike.
So you’re unable to uphold your end of the intellectual bargain. Big shock.
Here’s a shocker for you, Mike. When a bargain is struck, two parties agree to the bargain. You really aren’t very good at this intellectual stuff.
Go ask DNW what a negative proof fallacy is.
Go learn how stock and commodities markets work.
From the NYT today, here is a secondary impact of HCR which will drive the Right absolutely bananas!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/business/24leonhardt.html?hp
Ok, JH, I will.
Perhaps Hube can explain why the share value of health insurance company stock rose after the signing of this bill. Considering, of course, your assumption that the industries days are numbered. Why would an investor put money into an industry that was going to go tits up?
I don’t know. Perhaps the insurance cos. have an agreement w/Obama and co. that the gov. will keep them afloat no matter what. If that’s the case, we’ll all still get screwed as then our taxes will continue to go up.
Sounds like a lose-lose to me.
Ok, so the demise of the health insurance industry as we know it is a little exaggerated. Point made.
Perhaps the insurance cos. have an agreement w/Obama and co. that the gov. will keep them afloat no matter what.
Which is the worst part of the bill, in my opinion.
Dana: Ah, but I described what a fair opt-out would look like.
Care to walk the walk?
Golden…
Perry, I’m certain when you see an empty car rolling toward a cliff that you jump in the driver’s seat and slam on the accelerator. But that’s not what I do.
Nah, you just lie down in the back seat and whine that you shouldn’t be taxed to hire a driver…
Excellent point, Phoe.
Regarding laws of this country, York, why didn’t you care when this law (link below) was passed under Bush? I could be considered an enemy combatant. Why? Well, you know what I spend my time studying, the progress of, etc. You think I deserve to be incarcerated? I could be tortured under this law. We haven’t had a true democracy since Bush’s reign. Obama is a follow through, only he’s offering to save American lives.through health care. NOW you care, because of money? Why is money such a problem? Our politicians, especially Republicans continue to omni-potency to corporate power. You balk when our people get some power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v32O_TwsXEY
Don’t you fret, blu, nobody’s gonna torture you. There are two reasons to torture: one, to extract valuable information and two, to force someone to worship the power. Since you are devoid of anything of value and you already worship the power, you will not be tortured, but you might be asked to be one of the torturers.
Perry:
From the NYT today, here is a secondary impact of HCR which will drive the Right absolutely bananas!
“For all the political and economic uncertainties about health reform, at least one thing seems clear: The bill that President Obama signed on Tuesday is the federal government’s biggest attack on economic inequality since inequality began rising more than three decades ago.
It’s right out of Animal Farm. All are equal, just some are more equal than others.
Perry:
John, I don’t see it that way. Instead, I see HCR as saving money in the long run, by bending the cost curve, and by finally beginning to reform Medicare to reduce health care provider costs, to reduce fraud, and to further increase administrative efficiency. No administration or Congress so far, except this one, has been willing to step up to this car heading toward a cliff, by hitting the brakes! The CBO so far agrees.
Do you get up in the morning, click your heels three times, and say CBO is never wrong, CBO is never wrong, CBO is never wrong. As I understand, the three auditors at CBO are the Tin Man, the Scarecrow, and the Lion.
blubonnet:
Regarding laws of this country, York, why didn’t you care when this law (link below) was passed under Bush? I could be considered an enemy combatant. Why? Well, you know what I spend my time studying, the progress of, etc. You think I deserve to be incarcerated? I could be tortured under this law. We haven’t had a true democracy since Bush’s reign.
First off you’re not going to tortured. I’ll be a character witness. Yes, she is a character
Second, we do not have a Democracy, we have a Representative Republic. If we had a true democracy, we would have true anarchy to go with it.
Well, legally, they can, if the whim should come to the President. They are concerned about 911 Truth people, because ONE of them started trouble at the Pentagon, you heard about that I’m sure. McCain and Lindsey Grahm I believe it was, came up with something called “Enemy Belligerents”. Don’t make me go find it. It is there if you look. Rules regarding what is deemed to be the above title.