Islam Created US, Canada And Mexico

Everyone who enjoys life as a North American can thank Islam. It is a direct result of Islam that the United States, Canada, Mexico and a great many other countries were founded. Yes, you heard me right. And here you thought that the “New World” was discovered in an attempt to find a quicker, safer route to trade with China and India, which caused the founding of all these countries. Well, you’re right about that, too. But if you’re like me, you never considered Islam to be a catalyst of any sort.

UPDATE: eliminate all references to “Horn of Africa” and replace with “Cape of Good Hope” (thanks, Jeff)

I learned something today. And, as an educator at heart, I want to spread my learning. Islam was the primary catalyst in the discovery of the “New World.” I’m sure that, like me, you learned that Columbus set out to find a quicker, safer ocean-route to China and India than the dangerous route around the Horn of Africa. And you probably learned the route around the Horn of Africa was an alternative to the overland routes. Possibly even a quicker route with fewer hardships.

Looking at a clickable world map, I have to believe the quickest and safest way to trade with India and China during the 15th and 16th centuries would’ve been to dock ships in Constantinople, on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea, on the eastern shore of the Black Sea and trade with the overland caravans. So, why was the Horn of Africa chosen as an alternate route? Was it to bypass the middle man? I don’t believe so. Was it to avoid the travails of terrain and climate for the remaining overland route? Again, I don’t believe so. Especially if Britain was trading with another country that went through the effort of going the overland route. So, why take the very dangerous route around the Horn of Africa when a much safer route was available? Because that much safer route did not exist. It existed for centuries but it ceased to exist, so a new route for trade had to be created. Thus the very dangerous route around the Horn of Africa.

And the very dangerous route around the Horn of Africa (and the length of time involved) was the catalyst in finding a new, trans-global route which people like Columbus believed to be shorter and likely safer. But, so far, I have not added any new knowledge to what I already learned in all my History classes. Except I introduced a sudden loss of a Mediterranean-overland trading route to the mix. And that route loss was the catalyst for finding new routes.

The Mediterranean became an unacceptable route for merchant shipping. And the overland route from China and India to the eastern coast of the Mediterranean and Constantinople, a previously major port of trade, also became an unacceptable route for commerce. But why? In a word, Islam. The rise of Islam closed the overland routes and the Mediterranean to commerce. And this rise of Islam plunged Europe into the Dark Ages.

How could the “religion of peace” close the Mediterranean and the overland routes, causing people to risk their lives by sailing the Horn? Well, if you know your history, you’ll know the answer. And this is something I learned today. It wasn’t taught in History class in the 70s and early 80s. And I don’t blame my History teachers because they likely didn’t learn it either.

Throughout history, empires around the Mediterranean have risen and fallen. Certainly, during the rise of a new empire, trade was cut off. But as the new empire stabilized its borders, trade with and through the new empire began anew. And as the centuries moved ever forward, Europe moved from “barbaric” tribalism to “civilized” nationalism aided in part by regional natural borders, language barriers and regional culture. And this nationalization added to international trade. This nationalism also led to colonialism, which, in turn added to trade.

(The above paragraph is my reasoning and not based on my knowledge of history, so I could be totally wrong on that aspect. I don’t know for certain.)

Starting around the seventh century AD, as Europe was coalescing around nationalism, there was another force in play. And that force was the rise of Islam as a world power. And it was the deleterious nature of Islam, the great evil of Islam, that caused much great good. And history is replete with evidence of evil being used against itself to cause much good.*

It was around the seventh century AD that Islam owned all of the middle east, north Africa, the Mediterranean, Spain and the Mediterranean coastal regions of Europe. European Mediterranean port cities became virtual ghost towns as the Mohammedans constantly raided them. Constantinople was attacked on basically a yearly basis. And, contrary to previous empires, the Islamic empire never stabilized its borders and never allowed for trade crossing its borders.

While it was safe for heavily armed naval fleets to sail the Mediterranean, it was not safe for merchant vessels. And this Islamic lock-down of the Mediterranean lasted into the 19th century. (This is an important point, which I’ll refer back to later.) All seafaring trade in the region was effectively killed. In addition, the overland caravan routes through the Islamic empire were decimated. And there was no way of getting these routes of trade back, short of destroying the Islamic empire. No way at all.

It is the Islamic hegemony that plunged Europe into the dark ages. It is the Islamic hegemony which required the route around the Horn of Africa. And it is the extreme danger and life-threatening journey around the Horn of Africa, in concert with the Islamic hegemony, which caused explorers to seek out a new and safer route of trade between Europe and China and India.

Without the Islamic hegemony, the “New World” would not have been “found.” Fast-forward as we witness all the Spanish atrocities in Mexico and other regions of Central America. These atrocities were learned philosophies, and they were learned from the Mohammedans. What the Spaniards did in Central and North America were what the Mohammedans had been doing for centuries in the middle east and Mediterranean regions.

Enter the British as they colonize North America as a result of Columbus “finding” it. And remember, Columbus wouldn’t have “found” it had the Islamic hegemony permitted trade. As the colonies were growing, many different Christian groups fled Europe to have their freedom to worship Providence as they deemed proper. And the colonies grew.

Fast-forward again, and the US is formed as a separate and free nation a long way from the European powers. Of course, England and France were doing their little power-dance. And of course, France was going through its own revolution. And of course, England went through its own revolution (which was very different from the French revolution). And this all added to the isolation and security of the US as it was growing. But the Islamic hegemony also played a major role in providing the US the security needed to grow. Europe still had to deal with Islam owning the Mediterranean into the early 19th century. This gave the US the freedom and security necessary to grow without major undue outside conflicts (aside from England’s attempt to regain control in 1812-1814).

As you can see, Islam was key in “finding” the “New World.” As the US was in its infancy, Islam was also key in Europe’s leaving us alone, along with European infighting. We were found, colonized, became a nation (along with many other nations), grew from fragile to strong as a result of Islam. So we can thank the evil that is Islam for the great good the US has given the world.

For further reading, I strongly suggest you examine How Muslim Piracy Changed the World.
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*We can thank Nazi Germany for the re-emergence of Israel. If not for Nazi Germany, the anti-Jew Stalinist Soviet Union, the complicity of the US and England in not accepting mass migrations of Jews, Israel would’ve never re-emerged.
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Cross Posted on Truth Before Dishonor

84 Comments

  1. The history major in me is twitching…

    First off, the idea of a “dark ages” into which Europe was “plunged” is a goofy, easily disproved notion, and the idea that Islam catalyzed the “dark ages” is just plain dumb. For those who believe in the existence of a “dark ages,” the collapse of the Roman empire was the catalyst for it, and that occurred several centuries before Muhammad. But again, European intellectual life continued to grow between the fall of Rome and the Italian Renaissance – ask Abelard, Aquinas, and all those other medieval philosophers you’re giving short shrift to here.

    Second, the idea that Islam was “backwards” or antithetical to civilization is just wrong. During the Middle Ages, Islamic parts of the world were as a rule more civilized and more advanced by most measures of the words than their Christian counterparts (though, truth be told, the Chinese had them all beat). Take a look at the history of Spain from the Moorish conquest in 711 to the Almoravid conquest in 1200 or so and you’ll find a culturally rich melting pot of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim people with a generally well-adjusted Muslim king. And we can thank medieval Muslims for the forerunners to most modern mathematics and medicine (ever wondered why “algebra” sounds like an Arabic word?).

    Third, the trade route from the Mediterranean to the Far East involved travel through Muslim lands for at least six centuries before Atlantic exploration began in earnest, so it was hardly “Islam” that was blocking trade. Rather, the new Ottoman Empire – which is what took over Constantinople in 1453 – was still in flux. Once it settled down, the Ottomans became a stable, generally well-administered empire. Oh, and the gold trade that helped touch off Europe’s economic renaissance came about through the Muslim rulers of Mali, especially the historically profligate Mansa Musa.

    Fourth, the Christians were far more barbaric than the Muslims were where the Jews are concerned. Take Spain – Jews lived peacefully in Spain for 700 years after the Moorish conquest (little Almoravid-Almohad hiccup notwithstanding), but it was the Christians who kicked us out and started slaughtering us in 1492. Similarly, many European countries issued expulsion orders to the Jews during the Middle Ages – Britain kicked us out in 1290 and didn’t let us back in until Cromwell. Conversely, the Muslim countries were comparatively very good to the Jews – we had protected second-class status that gave us the freedom to live and practice our religion as part of the social fabric. Jewish life in Alexandria, Cairo, Baghdad, and what is now Israel thrived during the Middle Ages – it was only interrupted in Israel when the Christians temporarily took the place over during the Crusades, kicked us out, and sold us as slaves!

    “Evil of Islam” my ass.

  2. Very informative post, Jeff, about a history that very few of us either know or appreciate, I included!

  3. Sorry, I had to drive to work.

    Fifth, you leave out key elements of the impetus for Iberian nations to find a sea route to India. It was perfectly safe for merchant vessels to travel through the Mediterranean – it was just really damn expensive. The Turks played a role – but larger still was Venice’s role in controlling the eastern Mediterranean, and the rivalry between the two. Together they enriched themselves from the trade with China and India, but the growing Atlantic states didn’t want to pay the Venetians and the Turks and had an out – namely, the Atlantic Ocean. In the early 15th Century, Prince Henrique (Henry the Navigator) explored the African coastline for Portugal – Bartolomeo Diaz and Vasco da Gama claimed the African route for Portugal in the 1480s. That left the Spanish in something of a pickle – economically the overland/Mediterranean route made no sense, and going around Africa would involve payments to the Portuguese. Enter a certain Genovese guy with three boats and a really bad calculation of Earth’s circumference.

    Anyway, Columbus had scarcely returned to Spain the first time when the Brits were soon fishing off the coast of Newfoundland. Soon the Aztec and Inca Empires fell to the Spanish, the French sailed to the Caribbean to get in on the action, the Dutch bought New Amsterdam cheap from the wrong Indians, and Atlantic Europe had control of the New World and all its riches, leading to the balance of power you see today…

    Sixth, just as a pedantic thing, the Horn of Africa generally refers to the Somalia/Djibouti/Ethiopia/Eritrea area in East Africa right across the Gulf of Aden from Arabia. You’re thinking of the Cape of Good Hope.

    Seventh, if it can be said that the Spanish “learned” the atrocities of conquest, they did so from centuries of fighting against the Muslims. Indeed, the atrocities carried out in the New World were often done under the guise of “spreading Christianity,” though more often than not they were actually done for the purpose of enriching coffers back in Madrid. And I remind you yet again that it wasn’t the Muslims but the Christians who perpetrated the atrocity portrayed in this excellent documentary film.

  4. “Islam was the primary catalyst in the discovery of the “New World ..”

    Like syphilis was the catalyst for certain medical developments.

  5. Then again around 1412, Islam was stopped at Vienna.

    1529, actually. It was part of Suleiman the Magnificent’s Ottoman expansion. Most of Eastern Europe would remain under Ottoman power for the next three centuries or so.

    And the war of Moorish expansion was hardly a “jihad” in any recognizable sense. It was a war of conquest, pure and simple, and the Holy Roman Empire finally figured out the secret of Moorish horse expertise (hint – it involved the stirrup). Furthermore, within 20 years the Umayyad caliphate in Damascus would fall, splitting the new Muslim lands in two – the Umayyads took up residence in North Africa and Spain with their capital on Cordoba while the Abbasids took over most of Arabia and the Middle East. Further Muslim expansion into Southeast Asia and India, and further Balkanization of the two caliphates, would ensure that the Muslim world would never again be united under one ruler. That’s important when we, like John, are tempted to think of “Islam” as somehow monolithic – it hasn’t been anything approximating monolithic since 750 (though really it hasn’t been monolithic since Muawiya assassinated Ali in 661).

    And again, Spain was a better place to be than France for most of the Middle Ages. Just sayin’.

  6. “The history major in me is twitching…”

    Your polemical twitching and indignation has me laughing. Keep up the display.

  7. DNW:
    “Islam was the primary catalyst in the discovery of the “New World ..”

    Like syphilis was the catalyst for certain medical developments.

    The land route out of Southern Europe was treacherous to the Spices of the east. The sea route around Africa was daunting, so it was go west out of the Med since Spain had secured Gibralter with the ousting of the Moors in Spain. It’s just that Columbus ran into the Americas on his way to get spices.

  8. Yorkshire – most of the big Spanish voyages started on the Atlantic coast of Andalucia, which was under Castilian Spanish control starting around 1250 or so. Columbus, for example, left from Palos de la Frontera, a small town near the modern city of Huelva. A lot of other voyages used Cadiz, a larger city a little bit further down the coast and thus away from Portugal, as a port.

    So the Spanish didn’t need Gibraltar to start exploring – what they needed was a centralized government, which they didn’t have until Ferdinand and Isabella (ptui) united the place in 1479 following the War of Castilian Succession (which cemented Isabella’s rule over Castile) and subsequent succession of Ferdinand to the Aragonian throne.

  9. DNW, if you want to quit laughing and respond to my arguments, be my guest. Otherwise, you’re not really contributing anything to this thread.

  10. I still strongly recommend the “further reading” link I gave but did not quote. It was the catalyst for this article. And this article was an exercise in extrapolation. To explain, when I was in grade-school I had a teacher say “Birds eat twice their weight in food every day, so what do you think they spend most of their time doing?” My first response was not the same as any of the other students’ responses. I later retold this information to my daughter when she was about the same age and her response was identical to mine. All the other kids said “eating” while my daughter and I extrapolated and said “pooping.”

    So the “further reading” link caused my extrapolation.

  11. Jeff:
    Then again around 1412, Islam was stopped at Vienna.

    1529, actually. It was part of Suleiman the Magnificent’s Ottoman expansion. Most of Eastern Europe would remain under Ottoman power for the next three centuries or so.

    You’re right, I stand corrected.

    Right around the Balkan wars there was a book out about Islam and Orthodox Christianity in the Balkans and the battle over Kosovo. Orthodoxy looks at Kosovo as the place where they took a stand against Islam and is sacred to the Orthodox. Interestingly we took sides under Clinton to hand Kosovo to Islam and crazy Weasally Clark almost started a war with Russia when the Russians came in to guard Pristina from the Muslims, and Clark and NATO wanted to chase them out. The Russians were guarding the ortodox while NATO was handing the place to the muslims. Just for Shiggles, the Balkans and Islam extended at one point to Klagenfurt, Austria.

    If Turkey gets in the EU, the dam breaks and the flood gates open and what happened in Vienna and Tours will be lost.

  12. Holy Warriors by John J O’Neill is worth reading. It describes the lack of evidence for Islam’s “Golden Age”, the Mediterranian Muslim piracy and the “Dark Ages”.

    It is based on a book by Henri Pirenne who sourced Arab Muslim texts which disputed the accepted notion that the Europeans were barabarians civilised by Muslims. The Arabs described the opulence and beauty of Spanish cities when they invaded.

    Needless to say Pirenne has been airbrushed out of history.

  13. Pingback: Islam Created US, Canada And Mexico « Truth Before Dishonor

  14. Stephen, that’s true in the sense that “dark ages” and “golden ages” are ideas that are overly simplistic. Europe was, indeed, progressing at the time and there were undoubtedly good things occurring then. Roman cities would have still been around in Spain too – it’s not like everything just fell into disrepair overnight. And of course, there were awful rulers and atrocities committed by Muslim rulers too.

    Yorkshire, it’s worth noting that the guy who captured Hungary and laid siege to Vienna, Suleiman I (the Magnificent), also reformed the Ottoman Empire’s laws to the point where Christian serfs would often leave for Turkey because their lots would improve there. He also formally denounced many forms of anti-Semitism. As a Jew, if I were living in Vienna back then, I probably would have been rooting for Suleiman.

    That said, referring to a monolithic “Islam” – or a monolithic “Christianity” for that matter, no one would suggest that France and Britain always shared aims for example – is a fallacy. In fact, the idea that Ottoman Turkey was opposed to everyone else just because of their religion is ridiculous. European countries made alliances with the Ottomans in Crimea and again in World War I – heck, that alliance even included Austria!

  15. Jeff:
    European countries made alliances with the Ottomans in Crimea and again in World War I – heck, that alliance even included Austria!

    Then we come back to Lawrence of Arabia as we’re discussing on the Dr. Z. thread. It was always interesting that the Ottoman Turks were on the final leg at that point, but how far ahead they were over the Arab countries which still seem to thrive well on the 7th century living. The Turks had airplanes that just scared the hell out of the Arabs. Then from the downfall of the Ottomans along with the Germans etc. (and a Serb shot ArchD Ferd. in Sarajevo which started the whole mess) the Brits carved up the Ottoman Empire into the mess we have today.

  16. Amazing, York! You really know the history of the place. To me, it’s just a bunch of camels and not much else.

  17. Eric:
    Amazing, York! You really know the history of the place. To me, it’s just a bunch of camels and not much else.

    It’s why I call it the Muddled East. At one point, Arabs, Jews, Christians all lived together. But that was in the old world. Arabs are splintered, Islam is splintered, Christianity is splintered, and all of it is muddled.

    On the personal basis I’ve seen Jews and Palestinians work well together. On the Macro scale, the Palestinians, which are the old Phillistines, are splintered into two groups. Iran pays and delivers arms to Palestinians and Hezbollah, their proxies, to harass the Isrealies. The Israelis have your Zionists, ultra Orthodox (the trouble makers), and just regular Jews. Lebanon was Christian, but is pretty well wiped out by Hezbollah. The Egyptians and Jordanians have normalized relations with Israel. Syria, once a proxy for Iraq and Saddam, is now a proxy for Iran.

    Crazy Englishman Balfour split Iraq between Shiite, Sunnis, and Kurds (no whey). Sunnis have Syria and Jordan, but Jordan’s King is a Hashemite. Saudi is Sunni, but have the ultra orthodox Wahabbis running things. (They once barricaded a girls school on fire because the girls didn’t have their headgear handy, so it was more moral to have them burn, than be seen without head covers)

    Saudi still has the nomads, modern cities, and modern industry, and water well. So, all in all, it’s muddled and nuts.

    For good reading on the Palestinians and why they go nowhere, read “The Haj” by Leon Uris. And if the other Arabs were so worried about the Palestinians, they would absorb them like Jordan did, but then, they lose their bargaining chips with Israel. Also read Michener’s “The Source”.

  18. Stephen Gash, thanks for that. My “further reading” link is to writing by John J O’Niell.

    His essay also seems to miss the words “Silk Road” and “Mongols”.

    Given your subject matter, it’s a little like talking about why the Native Americans have been nearly exterminated by blaming it all on Canada and not mentioning the words “United States” at all.

  19. Yorkshire – didn’t know that about Iraq, but seriously, screw Balfour. The man managed to promise Palestine to two groups of people at once. Talk about tension raisers.

    And if the other Arabs were so worried about the Palestinians, they would absorb them like Jordan did, but then, they lose their bargaining chips with Israel.

    Yup. Though Jordan didn’t do such a good job themselves. The fact that Palestinians are still hoarded into “refugee camps” in Arab countries 60+ years after the fact reveal that their hosts are not interested in their well-being.

    Worth noting, too, that most of what would have made the Arab state in Palestine in the 1948 UN partition was absorbed by Arab countries – Egypt took Gaza, Jordan took the West Bank, and the area around Haifa went to Israel.

    Your “Lawrence of Arabia” point is well taken too. Arabs have been hamstrung by their tribal system for a while – such a system has prevented Arabia from being unified under one government for a long time, basically since the mid-13th century to the founding of Saudi Arabia. If there’s anything that has been shown to encourage development, it’s the stability that comes from a strong central government and the institutions that go with it – something that, until the rise of the Sauds, had been lacking in Arabia for a long, long time.

  20. Jeff:
    Yup. Though Jordan didn’t do such a good job themselves. The fact that Palestinians are still hoarded into “refugee camps” in Arab countries 60+ years after the fact reveal that their hosts are not interested in their well-being.

    I would say in Pakistan and Afghanistan you have real refugee camps. In Haiti and Chile you have instant tent cities, but to call Palestinians “Refugees” after 60 years where the vast majority of these “refugees” are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation, it’s time to think you might not be going back to what is now a foreign land. Yet, they now become useful idiots to the likes of Terror masters Iran and Syria who uses them as pawns and proxies against their enemy, Israel.

  21. Jeff:
    Yorkshire – didn’t know that about Iraq, but seriously, screw Balfour. The man managed to promise Palestine to two groups of people at once. Talk about tension raisers.

    Now if you want even crazier, what was “Kurdistan” was incorporated into Turkey, Iraq and Iran. What was “Armenia” is split into Turkey and one of the stans. The Kurds are hated by the Turks, Sunnis and Shiites. After Gulf 1, the Kurds got an autonomous region in Northern Iraq as payback for Saddam gassing them. When we went to invade Iraq, Turkey, being pissed off at the Kurds would not allow us to marshal troops to the Kurdish area even though the US and Turkey are in NATO.

    It’s not called the Muddled East for nothing. You need an 8×10 wall hanging scorecard to keep up.

  22. Worth noting, too, that most of what would have made the Arab state in Palestine in the 1948 UN partition was absorbed by Arab countries – Egypt took Gaza, Jordan took the West Bank, and the area around Haifa went to Israel.

    Worth noting indeed. It’s the genesis of the so-called Palestinian problem that the Arab world (and folks like Perry) pin(s) squarely on the back of Israel.

  23. The Merry Minuet
    By The Kingston Trio 1959 Album From The Hungry i

    They’re rioting in Africa.
    They’re starving in Spain.
    There’s hurricanes in Florida, and Texas needs rain.

    The whole world is festering with unhappy souls.
    The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles.
    Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch.
    And I don’t like anybody very much!

    But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud, for man’s been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud.
    And we know for certain that some lovely day, someone will set the spark off… and we will all be blown away.

    They’re rioting in Africa.
    There’s strife in Iran.
    What nature doesn’t do to us… will be done by our fellow man.

  24. Yorkshire: “On the personal basis I’ve seen Jews and Palestinians work well together. On the Macro scale, the Palestinians, which are the old Phillistines, are splintered into two groups. Iran pays and delivers arms to Palestinians and Hezbollah, their proxies, to harass the Isrealies. The Israelis have your Zionists, ultra Orthodox (the trouble makers), and just regular Jews. Lebanon was Christian, but is pretty well wiped out by Hezbollah. The Egyptians and Jordanians have normalized relations with Israel. Syria, once a proxy for Iraq and Saddam, is now a proxy for Iran.”

    You left out one proxy: Israel of the US. In my view, our invasion of Iraq was intended, among several other strategic goals, to take some pressure off of Israel, by establishing our own military presence in the region.

  25. Jeff wrote:

    “DNW, if you want to quit laughing and respond to my arguments, be my guest. Otherwise, you’re not really contributing anything to this thread.”

    Jeff,

    Ok, ‘fess up. If you purely intended to engage in a scholarly discussion rather than to use the occasion to vent your spleen over a convenient topic, you would have omitted both the personal references to your twitchiness, and the pejorative laden polemical tone of your “evaluation” of John’s remarks.

    For brevity’s sake, and because you have apparently calmed down somewhat since yesterday, I’ll give you just one example of your comical disingenuousness.

    The destruction of the Byzantine Empire, you magnificently characterize with a virtually passive voice, referring to the Ottoman Empire: “which is what took over Constantinople in 1453.” LOL

    Whatever role the Latins had in undermining the remains of the Byzantine empire and it may at times have been considerable, it’s a fact that Constantinople was cannonaded into submission, and then stormed by Muslim forces at the end of a protracted siege. End of Eastern Rome for good.

    Obviously you have a kind of ulterior motive at work here, a personal and emotional ax to grind which you more or less admit; i.e.,: “… it was the Christians who kicked us out and started slaughtering us in 1492. … Britain kicked us out in 1290 and didn’t let us back in until Cromwell…”, and, Jeff, far be it from me to try and deprive you of the pleasure of grinding that ax here.

    And, it’s true enough, that those who apparently identify with the Western European Christian tradition more personally than you do, have some of the same impulses.

    It’s just that I find your condescending rhetorical performance funny; a kind of knowing cosmopolitan disdain directed at John, and delivered with a broadly p.c. sniff.

    There seems to be something about history “buffs” that causes them to sometimes act like shouting 12 year old boys who think that they are the ones who have discovered that women are actually naked underneath their clothes …

    Other than that, you are doing fine.

    Regards,

    DNW

  26. Hube: “Worth noting indeed. It’s the genesis of the so-called Palestinian problem that the Arab world (and folks like Perry) pin(s) squarely on the back of Israel.”

    No, that is not my view, Hube. The Zionist movement was an important start, but the colonial powers, principally the Brits and us, were the ultimate creators of the partition of the Palestinian lands, without significant input from the Palestinian Arabs. Were you a Palestinian Arab, how would you have responded?

    Sympathy for the historical long-suffering of the Jews, culminating in the Holocaust, and the Biblical claims of the Zionists, played an emotional role as well, in my view.

    I am neither pro-Israeli nor pro-Palestinian, or anti either; rather, I am pro Middle East peace. Negotiations involving the principal elected parties, Hamas, Fatah, and Israel, is the only way to go, since history has demonstrated that wars serve only to polarize the region and cause innocent civilian causalities.

  27. Were you a Palestinian Arab, how would you have responded?

    Apparently for you it is OK to seek the complete and utter destruction of Israel and Jews everywhere considering your continuing defense of Hamas, et. al.

    Here’s the deal which you refuse to face, Perry: There was NO sovereign Palestine prior to 1948. Historic Palestine was home to Palestinian Arabs and Jews. The Partition Plan, while not perfect, was a sensible solution to the growing problem. The FACT of the matter is, as noted previously by someone else, is that OTHER ARAB countries gobbled up the land set aside for the Palestinian Arabs who then, together with them, proceeded to attack the nascent Jewish state. These Arab countries then KEPT that land. They then lost it in 1967 when they decided AGAIN to attempt to destroy Israel. They lost even more in 1973 when they decided AGAIN to destroy Israel.

    Yet, Perry, you seek to place the onus on the Jews for the situation, Perry. You have continually blasted Israel for their [continued] defense against terrorist attacks — attacks that have never ceased in over 60 years.

    Where’s the concern over the Jews who lost their homes/land as a result of the Partition Plan, Perry? Most moved to Israel. They were purged from the Arab sections. The Palestinian Arabs who were within Israel’s new borders could have stayed if they wished. Many did. Oh, but those who desired to move to the new Palestine could not — because Jordan and Egypt took that land. Not Israel. Not anyone else. Nope. It was the Palestinian Arabs’ Arab neighbors.

  28. York, I do know a little about the Middle East, have read some books on Saudi Arabia (which I find to be a fascinating country, but I digress). I could not, for example, explain the Israeli/Palestinian thing if you pointed a gun at my head.

    Airplanes I know. This stuff? Not so much …

  29. Yorkshire, that’s why I chose chemical engineering over history when I went to grad school. It’s far easier to understand.

    DNW, why is quoting history in an attempt to make an argument suddenly a bad thing? Isn’t that exactly what John is doing? Yet I don’t see you whining about John’s polemical style.

    You’re mad because I disagree with you, and that I’m stating that point somewhat emphatically. Fine. But the best way to deal with that is to address my actual arguments and tell me why you think I’m wrong, not to whine about my writing style.

  30. Hube is still wrong: “Apparently for you it is OK to seek the complete and utter destruction of Israel and Jews everywhere considering your continuing defense of Hamas, et. al.”

    I never said that and I don’t believe it. Here is exactly what I did say: “I am neither pro-Israeli nor pro-Palestinian, or anti either; rather, I am pro Middle East peace. Negotiations involving the principal elected parties, Hamas, Fatah, and Israel, is the only way to go, since history has demonstrated that wars serve only to polarize the region and cause innocent civilian causalities.

    Also, you failed to answer my question: “Were you a Palestinian Arab, how would you have responded?”

    You said: “There was NO sovereign Palestine prior to 1948. “

    True, but there also was not a sovereign State of Israel. Moreover, in 1919, David Ben Gurion himself recognized Palestine as an “Arab Nation”: “David Ben Gurion, who would lead the Yishuv (the Jewish community in Palestine) and went on to be the first Prime Minister of Israel, told a meeting of the governing body of the Jewish Yishuv in 1919 “But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question…We as a nation, want this country to be ours, the Arabs as a nation, want this country to be theirs.”"

    “Historic Palestine was home to Palestinian Arabs and Jews.”

    Also true, but at the start of the Zionist movement into Palestine, there was an overwhelming preponderance of Arabs. Even by 1922, the population was 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish; by 1945, it was 60%/31%.

    “The Partition Plan, while not perfect, was a sensible solution to the growing problem.”

    Of course, since in 1945 it favored the minority segment of the population at that time, is it any wonder that the Jews accepted it and the Arabs rejected it? Moreover, most of the Jewish population were in Jaffe and Jerusalem districts, the other 14 districts being overwhelmingly Muslim (Arab). Land ownership was also largely Arab in all 16 districts. In Jerusalem it was 84% Arab, 2% Jewish.

    You are correct about the land grabs of Palestinian territories by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria, as they were the only organized Arab militia in the area to attempt such a thing. Interestingly, none of them were organized well enough to overcome the Israelis in either 1948-9, 1967 or 1973, when finally the cold war enemies took sides, thus further polarizing the situation. It has actually gotten worse, as was experienced more recently in Lebanon, then Gaza.

    My point is: The colonial powers and the superpowers, by taking sides, have made Palestine a focus of prolonged hostility and bloodshed, and have exacerbated the situation ever since. With a couple of exceptions like Carter and Clinton, we have been instigators not conciliators, when we have had opportunities to do otherwise, like stepping back from Israel, thus putting pressure on the combatants to come to terms. Israel was/is our proxy, just as the Palestinians were for the former Soviet Union and neighboring Arab nations. More recently, The Palestinians have been the proxy for Syria and Iran, through Hezbollah and Hamas.

    Somebody has to make the first move now, to get the peace process going again. It is not helping to have the Israelis blockading Gaza, expanding settlements into the Palestinian West Bank, and expanding their territory into Palestinian Jerusalem. Who, I ask, is the current aggressor, Hamas with their mortars and rockets, or Israel with their blockade and expansions?

    Hube, rather than examining both sides of this clash, you are a propagandist for the Israeli cause; although some of what you say is correct, it is not all one sided like you attempt to make it appear to be.

  31. Hube, rather than examining both sides of this clash, you are a propagandist for the Israeli cause; although some of what you say is correct, it is not all one sided like you attempt to make it appear to be.

    What a riot. You completely gloss over the MAJOR factor that has led to the Palestinian situation we see currently — that their Arab neighbors took the land allotted them. You argue the unfairness of the land distribution; however, again, neither Arab nor Jewish areas were sovereign and only the UN, to whom the Brits ceded the problem, actually had the “right” to make a determination.

    Arabs were welcomed to remain in the Jewish designated territory; Jews were expelled from Arab lands. The new Israel wanted peace with its new neighbors; the Arab states wanted (and still want) Israel destroyed.

    If all those very basic facts (and much, much more, elaborated on elsewhere) makes me a “propagandist” for Israel, so be it. I’d rather be labeled that than be the revolting piece of morally relativist revisionist that you are.

  32. Jeff wrote:

    “DNW, why is quoting history in an attempt to make an argument suddenly a bad thing?”

    Jeff, I don’t know who you were initially ‘quoting’, if anyone, since you did not say.

    For all I could tell, from the gratuitous explanations, of say, identity, like this one “Prince Henrique (Henry the Navigator) explored the African coastline for Portugal ” you were using your How and Why Wonder Books of the “Age of Exploration and Discovery” or something.

    And, I never said nor implied that there was anything wrong with using historical references or evidence when making arguments. I think that it is generally the proper thing to do, to “document”, that is.

    I do however notice that you are not quoting anyone here as you supposedly respond to what you imply I said.

    “Isn’t that exactly what John is doing? Yet I don’t see you whining about John’s polemical style.”

    You seem to be trying to shelter behind John, as if you are a pair in kind, and then to advance an assertion as to the appropriateness of my criticism, from behind John’s “skirts”.

    It would have been much more forthright of you – and this goes to the heart of your approach – to have simply quoted what I actually wrote, and to acknowledge what it was that I actually said about your contentions and your historical characterizations. Which was in part,

    ” Obviously you [Jeff] have a kind of ulterior motive at work here, a personal and emotional ax to grind which you more or less admit … and, Jeff, far be it from me to try and deprive you of the pleasure of grinding that ax here. …

    It’s just that I find your condescending rhetorical performance funny; a kind of knowing cosmopolitan disdain directed at John, and delivered with a broadly p.c. sniff.

    There seems to be something about history “buffs” that causes them to sometimes act like shouting 12 year old boys who think that they are the ones who have discovered that women are actually naked underneath their clothes …

    Other than that, you are doing fine.”

    (emphasis added)

    See, Jeff, that is what someone with a respect for the integrity of the historical process, and dialog, would have done.

    They would refer to the actual text, in context, and address that. Just as I did.

    They would do that Jeff, instead of just making accusations up, and hoping no one would notice.

    “You’re mad because I disagree with you, and that I’m stating that point somewhat emphatically. Fine. But the best way to deal with that is to address my actual arguments and tell me why you think I’m wrong, not to whine about my writing style.”

    You seem to be confused on a couple of points at least here, Jeff.

    1. It’s not you ardency that is the problem; it’s what it has done to your method of argument.

    2. Unless you believe that posturing polemicism and p.c. sniffing are integral parts of your style, (rather than examples of analytical flaws and logical inadequacies revealed in discussion) it was not your writing “style” which I found objectionable.

    3. I did address your text directly by pointing out to you how absurd certain elements of your rhetorical framing of this whole issue had been; especially with regard to the fall of the city of Constantinople. You described the event as if a house were vacated and then re-occupied by someone who just happened to move in; when the fact is that the city fell to a violent Muslim siege and the last Byzantine Emperor died “on the walls” defending it.

    Now, I don’t expect that to resonate with you on some emotional level, as you are operating from an alternate moral framework, have a different set of interests and operating assumptions.

    But it’s a fact, and one you appear to have deliberately glossed over in an attempt to skew the facts your way.

    I said before Jeff, you are welcome to your framing, to your opinions, and to the delivery of them.

    Just as I am welcome to laugh.

    Hope this helps.

    DNW

  33. Hube strikes out again: “I’d rather be labeled that [a propagandist] than be the revolting piece of morally relativist revisionist that you are.”

    Coming from a die-hard absolutist, I take that as a compliment.

    I notice that now you acknowledge that neither Arab nor Jewish areas were sovereign. In your previous propaganda piece, you mentioned only the Arab areas.

    “Arabs were welcomed to remain in the Jewish designated territory; Jews were expelled from Arab lands. The new Israel wanted peace with its new neighbors; the Arab states wanted (and still want) Israel destroyed.”

    Your first statement is true, the second, half true. Ever hear of Mahmoud Abbas?

    “What a riot. You completely gloss over the MAJOR factor that has led to the Palestinian situation we see currently — that their Arab neighbors took the land allotted them.”

    No, Hube, In your continued haste to be belligerent, you didn’t notice that I agreed with you on that point! You’re hopeless!

    I notice that you say nothing about Israeli encroachment on the West Bank and into Arab Jerusalem, and nothing about the almost starving of Gazan civilians with their blockade, including not granting passage between Gaza and the West Bank. That’s all OK with you, Hube?

    You also did not respond to my point about the overwhelming majority of Arabs living in Palestine in 1945, just before the partitioning on about a 50:50 basis. That was OK with you, right Hube? If you were Palestinian, that would be OK with you also, right Hube?

    Finally, you continue to avoid my question: “Were you a Palestinian Arab, how would you have responded [to the colonial powers carving up the land on which you live]?” I understand how hard that is for you, but try anyway! How about it Hube?

  34. If I was a Palestinian, I would most likely be unhappy with the plan. Just as many Jews were unhappy, as well, Perry. Hell, the Arabs rejected a plan (by the British Peel Commission) that would have allotted the Jews only 15% of the land. Why did they reject that, Perry? Only 15% for the Jews! I have conceded numerous times that the Plan was an imperfect solution to an intractable problem; however, you continue to make excuses for the murderous impulses that continue to drive way too many Arabs towards Jews today. Period. And that, frankly, is disgusting. Again.

    I notice that you say nothing about Israeli encroachment on the West Bank and into Arab Jerusalem, and nothing about the almost starving of Gazan civilians with their blockade, including not granting passage between Gaza and the West Bank. That’s all OK with you, Hube?

    The “starving” bit has already been proven a sham story; as Hamas and their murderous cohorts willingly use civilians as shields and launch rockets from civilian homes, who do you REALLY think is responsible for any starvation? I know better than to ask you, Perry — because you’re a propagandist for the Arabs. As for the rest of your points — YES. It IS perfectly OK for Israelis to encroach on the West Bank and Jerusalem and even Gaza since they were acquired in a DEFENSIVE WAR FOR SURVIVAL. Israel is under NO obligation to return them, yet … they have! And what has happened — as usual? Rockets, rockets and more rockets. More terrorism.

    If Hamas, Hizbollah et. al. adopted a MLK or Gandhi approach, they’d have their state by now. But desiring a state of their own isn’t WHAT they want. They want ALL of the land — with Israel destroyed and Jews dead. Since this isn’t gonna happen, you’d propose Israel do … what, exactly? What incentive do they have, precisely?

  35. Spoken with on target precision, Perry! But you are talking factual, so good luck, but, on his capacity for translation, it probably won’t permeate. Egos seem to be be a bigger baricade than their capacity for comprehension of reason, in many recent observations. I think his ego might be your obstacle here. It is the Conservative way, it seems.

    Seriously, what do you think prevents them from using their kaboodles? You can point to a dog, call it a dog, they’ll see that it’s a dog, and change their mind into seeing a cat, if ijn the middle of watching their CONservantive supporting(serving CONs, as in CON-melen, literally, war criminals that are not comfortable our country now, scared for their “freedom”,leaving this country, but with but, tax dollars have paid secret service all around them, snug as a bug in a rug supported, keeping all outside legal forces from permeating their secret service circle, this cabal are in with and in a complimentary way to one another, these anti-science-media, that consistently gets proven wrong, because they lie, shown time and time and time again, it’s a party (GOP) alright, a backscratchin’ party. Well, to get back to the point, you have to let it permeate to these guys that they are dupes on an ongoing basis? Good luck on that.

  36. Spoken with on target precision, Perry! But you are talking factual, so good luck, but, on his capacity for translation, it probably won’t permeate. Egos seem to be be a bigger baricade than their capacity for comprehension of reason, in many recent observations. I think his ego might be your obstacle here. It is the Conservative way, it seems.

    Hardly. What’s at work here is the “progressive” predilection for siding with “the underdog” no matter the rationality, morality or logic.

  37. And, what I’m seein in the Dems, they all eating out of same trough, but I still think the Cons in DC are better covered by big financial sources and the Cons aren’t limited to the Rs. And it’s CON men…and women.

  38. Hube:

    I guess you haven’t heard of Mahmoud Abbas, correct Hube?

    In your continued effort to propagandize, you characterize all Palestinians the color of Hamas. And then, equally absurd, you excuse the Israelis for their varied encroachments onto Palestinian land.

    To what end, Hube? Following current Israeli strategy will cause them to have to be in a constant state of hypertension, forever, else they lay waste all Palestinians as an alternative. What kind of a life do they gain with that approach?

    And finally, being pro-Israeli as you are, that’s fine, but wishing for them to prolong their hypertension is as dysfunctional of you as the Hamas terrorists are dysfunctional — to what end?

  39. Blubonnet, that is a terrific video!

    Hube, you ought to watch it. It will warm your heart, I think!

  40. Jeff:
    Yorkshire, that’s why I chose chemical engineering over history when I went to grad school. It’s far easier to understand.

    I went into Construction Engineering and project engineering for construction companies, then I’m working for the Corps of Engineers.

  41. Here’s a scene in TelAviv. The taller building is a hotel I stayed in, and the lower building was under renovation. But on close inspection you could see bullet pock marks from the ’48 war. This is a block off the beach on the Med.

  42. If you all remember, in the 1990′s Arafat opened an airport on the Gaza Strip in hopes of kick starting a tourist business for the Palestinians. It worked for a few months and then disintegrated back to their business as usual.

  43. Seriously, what do you think prevents them from using their kaboodles? You can point to a dog, call it a dog, they’ll see that it’s a dog, and change their mind into seeing a cat, if ijn the middle of watching their CONservantive supporting(serving CONs, as in CON-melen, literally, war criminals that are not comfortable our country now, scared for their “freedom”,leaving this country, but with but, tax dollars have paid secret service all around them, snug as a bug in a rug supported, keeping all outside legal forces from permeating their secret service circle, this cabal are in with and in a complimentary way to one another, these anti-science-media, that consistently gets proven wrong, because they lie, shown time and time and time again, it’s a party (GOP) alright, a backscratchin’ party. Well, to get back to the point, you have to let it permeate to these guys that they are dupes on an ongoing basis? Good luck on that.

    Was the above piece written by an orangutan? Honestly, I couldn’t understand a word of it!

    Seriously, Blu, get thee to a writing class pronto, and learn how to express yourself clearly. The piece written above is pure gobbledygook!

  44. And why should I respect your opinion?

    Maybe because I know a thing or two about writing, have taken several classes from published writers (including one NY Times best seller), thus I recognize bad writing when I see it. A good writer can express himself clearly, your piece above was just a muddled mess. It made no sense at all.

    BTW Completely off topic, but here’s a terrific video. Enjoy!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ-eisHzA84&NR=1

  45. You, Eric have pre-empted your own morality( suppporting Conservatives’ torture, and pre-emptive war based on deception of our own people, and I haven’t the time to list it all here, and yet you keep standing behind these egregious violations of humanity by GOP owned companies and networks, voluntarily, of course. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised you don’t get what I said. You of course, take your lack of comprehension, and attempt to turn it into a perceived inability of me to write. There is that hideous ego again that prohibits adequate brain tissue to be initiated.

  46. Lapses in neuro-synapsis. LOL er…mayb eit’s neural-snyapsis….hmm, probably the first…LOL

  47. When you take all these things into consideration, it makes you wonder who is really in charge of this country. Gee, maybe it’s an industry inter-interrogating, media monarch (yes filtered), archaic, weapons industry Petro, Pentagon party. ha!

  48. Defense Industry/Media/Government complex, it all applies to whose pulling strings and keeping people ignorant, like yourself. You would never see these things on MSM, because they profit off of your ignorance.

    It just came to me….ignorance…is from the word IGNORE. That’s what you do when things don’t fit into your disney denial of horrors done in our name.

  49. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised you don’t get what I said.

    I didn’t “Get” what you said because it wasn’t written clearly. It was a veritable dog’s breakfast of incoherence.

  50. Maybe because I know a thing or two about writing, have taken several classes from published writers (including one NY Times best seller), thus I recognize bad writing when I see it.

    Uh-huh. I’ve been published in professional journals – what about you?

    Frankly, Eric, you’re “Oh, this is not good writing” schtick is a sign of desperation – you know you get your ass kicked every time you try to argue facts or logic.

  51. Pho, you couldn’t write your way out of a wet paper bag. Your prose is limpid, style and wit nonexistent, and a limited vocabulary to boot.

    About the only good thing I can say about your writing is it is generally devoid of typos.

  52. I would like to challenge Hube to watch this. It is short.

    Can’t access YouTube from work, blu. Give me the skinny — what’s it about?

  53. Hube, this clip is a view of Gazans going about their daily lives, with some scenes of the beauty of the beach life there. It gives a feel for the land and its people, and omits the ravages of war, a view that few of us here ever see of the place and its people.

  54. Actually Perry, it is a short lecture, with photos, this last clip I posted. The ravages of war of the Gaza strip, and are presented in their horror, which many well meaning Americans, like Hube, I guess he means well, but never see the realities, because of our war profiteering, and controlled main-stream-media.

    Remember, the former CIA Director William Colby, said, that the CIA owns anyone of any significance in the MSM. Odd he would dare say that, exposing that. I wondered what happened to him, thinking that might be dangerous to do that which he did, expose dirty secrets. Well, I guess in the nineties, he had a canoe accident, and his body was found washed ashore sometime later. No foul play reported…by what intelligence agency reporting…? One cannot make proclamations such as that without proof, so I won’t. However, it wouldn’t surprise me if he was offed.

  55. Pho, you couldn’t write your way out of a wet paper bag. Your prose is limpid, style and wit nonexistent, and a limited vocabulary to boot.

    I’ve been published in professional journals – what about you?

  56. I’ve been published in professional journals – what about you?

    A link to it would be nice, but I’m guessing that Worm Farming Monthly might not have a website yet …

  57. Yeah, right, like I’m going to give out my real name to a bunch of wingnuts.

  58. Coward. That’s what you are, Pho, a little mouse of a man, working his little mouse of a job. Personally, I would not only post my full name on this Site, but give out my street address and phone number, too.

    Face it, Pho, you’re a weiner. I’ve seen you post on Pandagon, and you’re like a whipped dog begging for attention. And you talk about Kicking Ass! I’m guessing you’ve never kicked an ass in your lifetime, been in a fistfight, joined the military, ridden a motorcycle, looped a Cessna, scuba dived, mountain climbed, nor fallen in love with an Italian beauty. Well, I’ve done all these things Pho, and more. I’ve lived a full life. Can you say the same?

  59. I’m guessing you’ve never kicked an ass in your lifetime, been in a fistfight, joined the military, ridden a motorcycle, looped a Cessna, scuba dived, mountain climbed, nor fallen in love with an Italian beauty.

    Eric, you can guess what you like. I’ve demonstrated I can think and give an intelligent opinion – which means I have you beaten three ways to Sunday.

  60. “Pho, a little mouse of a man, working his little mouse of a job. Personally, I would not only post my full name on this Site, but give out my street address and phone number, too.

    Face it, Pho, you’re a weiner. I’ve seen you post on Pandagon, and you’re like a whipped dog begging for attention. And you talk about Kicking Ass! I’m guessing you’ve never kicked an ass in your lifetime, been in a fistfight, joined the military, ridden a motorcycle, looped a Cessna, scuba dived, mountain climbed, nor fallen in love with an Italian beauty. Well, I’ve done all these things Pho, and more. I’ve lived a full life. Can you say the same?”

    Eric, don’t you think you are being a bit brutal? LOL

    I mean, “Worm Farming Monthly”? Hilarious, but almost too cruel.

    No doubt Mr. Troll does have a rather full life: surfing the Internet looking for Republicans to annoy, flying along by dosing himself with morphine, sharing his conviction that life is pointless, and enjoying the intimacy of having his foot troubles tended to by some unfortunate medical technician.

    And you think riding a motorcycle and dating a young Luciana Paluzzi look-a-like could be better than that?

  61. Pho: <>

    I somehow doubt you could change a spare tire, let alone fly a jet, which I have in fact done.

  62. Eric, don’t you think you are being a bit brutal? LOL
    I mean, “Worm Farming Monthly”? Hilarious, but almost too cruel.

    You are quite right. Having at it with Pho is like kicking a one legged dog, a wee bit unsporting as the Brits might say.

    Anyway, he continues his downward spiral, starting out as a poster, then a pest, then a troll, then Spam, and now finally reduced to Internet static.

  63. Eric, you can guess what you like. I’ve demonstrated I can think and give an intelligent opinion

    Actually, you have demonstated no such thing. Your sole talent, from what I can see, is surfing Google and posting stuff you find on Wiki. And of course any reasonably bright 8 year old could do the same. I have yet to see any actual signs of intelligence, and certainly not wit or style. Your prose is pedestrian, and your posts entirely predictable.

    In that sense, you are a lot like Blu. Big difference being that, under all her Twoofer nonsense there seems to be an actual human being, with a good heart. In contrast, you post like a soulless automaton that has been programmed to respond only with bile and spite.

  64. from what I can see,

    Rest assured, Eric, that I will take the opinion of someone who thinks Al Qaeda is a bigger threat to America than Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were with all the due consideration it deserves.

  65. We all ought not be so nasty to one another. Our egos, mine included gets into our attitude. It should never interfere with our minds’ work. It starts to sound childish, like “My daddy’s gun is bigger than your daddy’s guy” I remember hearing that conversation as a small child. It’s the same story in adult version, when I see or hear…”My job is better than your job. I get more money than you get.” This isn’t adult subject matter. I had an Italian beauty…” Shut up! Why should we care about you all, the rest of us.

    Personally when attacks target people personally, I think it’s a deflective tactic, to avoid looking at something. If duping only yourself is your issue. Insecure moments lead to childlike responses. These things are obvious.

    Hey, you guys, check this out. No, it’s not about 9-11-01, it’s the history, CIA circa WWII, the origins of the organization…Operation Paperclip? CIA…history! It’s intriguing! Then, just for one, or, for debate points to throw at your opponent, one can use historical references such as this, and/challenge itor your opponenet, or your self, needing verification, whatever. Challenge…think….with just a few key words, search engines are our machine of infinite sources to better challenge your own sources and more. Read multiple pieces on any one subject. Well….Libs and Cons alike should be interested in this…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1ce3G5I1lI

  66. And, I’m sorry Cons, but often times, we on the Left are so appalled that you let horrors happen because your ideology interferes with your morality, and/or objectivity, which also allows for power to be given full reign to the folks that down through history exploit power, at the expense of thousands of lives, and losses of families, and homes and hope, lost limbs, minds, and often faces. .

    The warnings from Dwight D. Eisenhower in regards to the forces of weapons industry, the Military Industrial Complex, and those in power have now taken complete control of our government. Dwight Eisenhower warned ominously. Lincoln warned. Madison warned. The rich, the government, defense industry, bankers, they are in on and on making it big on the money on the war, you know, and in recent years, it’s become much more powerful. How long? Who is? When could they be defeated? Who is? You know, the terrorists. That nebulous emotion, making the “enemy” pretty vague as well. My goodness, if you had infinite power, you could declare anyone, anything. Hmmm, GWB granted himself those infinite liberties.

    Well, forgive our rudeness, also, but we think you are incredibly dumb if you don’t see those things obvious, if it weren’t for ideology that completely obscures either objectivity or sense of security, or ego..? It makes us feel disgusted, mostly because thousands of people are being slaughtered while war profiteers get wealthier than any human needs to spend in a lifetime. While people are dying, in a war, and a lack of supplies to live, even if untouched by bullets, it makes people die. Such serious things, mindlessly supporting, without listening to soldiers that were there, or independent journalists, and others too afraid to say any thing against the “mission”.

    Your ignorance of information, makes you ignorant (only in sense that you IGNORE..root word for ignorant) is dangerous, if you vote. It becomes hard to respect your perspective, when it hurts so many innocent cognizant human being, or kills them. You don’t seem to want to know these things, so you deny it, and won’t look at the evidence for it.

    That kind of ongoing behavior makes for disrespect. So you get treated poorly. Just my opinion. I know, I know, they are like as…

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