For some people, BDS remains a serious disease

On Wednesday, President George W Bush will have been out of office for a full year; I would have thought that Bush Derangement Syndrome would have died a natural death by now, but apparently I was wrong about that. Rob Kall, editor and owner of OpEdNews, wrote this both sad and amusing piece:


Democratic Presidential Bush Enablers Rehabilitate Criminal Bush


by Rob Kall

Obama and Clinton, book-ending the war and constitutional criminal Bush, giving him respectability, even honor as Clinton and Bush are announced as jointly working to help Haitians. It’s a good cause, but ends up conferring respectability upon a man who should be treated as a pariah.

It’s just about a year. Obama, after using Clinton’s former chief of staff John Podesta to fill his administration with Clinton administration DLC DINOs, has followed in Clinton’s footsteps, failing to prosecute a former president Bush for the horrific crimes he committed. Clinton let Herbert Walker Bush get away with his criminal role in the Iran Contra Affair. If Clinton had allowed investigations of Bush senior to proceed, the Bush name would have been irredeemably tainted and the US and the world would never have suffered the infliction of George W. Bush upon us.

Now, Obama not only fails to prosecute Bush, who should have been impeached, but for the infamy of Nancy Pelosi, but he honors and glorifies Dubya, sharing the podium with him.

No wonder there are so many Americans ready to repudiate the Democrats for their failures– failures to prosecute criminal politicians, failure to fire and prosecute Bush appointees in the Justice Department guilty of gross prosecutorial misconduct.

When I read things like this, I sometimes imagine the author’s keyboard and monitor to be spittle-flecked. I suppose I should have expected something along these lines, because OpEdNews was busy running pro-impeachment articles, and had pro-impeachment banners even after the 2008 elections; practicality is not something I associate with that particular site.

Mr Kall, just let it go! George Bush is no longer President of the United States, and will never be President of the United States again. He will almost certainly never hold another public office. It should be obvious that, despite your rather negative opinion of our 43rd President, most Democrats, even though glad he is out of office, are ready to move on.

48 Comments

  1. This actually made me laugh out loud – this very blog can rarely resist the urge to blow off the still-always-building-up-steam about Bill Clinton, but somehow that’s not deranged. “Move on”? An entire movement that will be cursing Clinton’s name with every other breath even on its deathbed isn’t really in a position to tell others to let old annoyances lie

  2. This is Bush’s main contribution to America: We became a country that jumps when terrorists want us to. We became a country that tosses out its founding principles as a matter of convenience. We became a nation that tortures and aches to torture again. We respond correctly to fear from domestic as well as foreign terrorists. We recoil just as promptly from bombs as microphones and press conferences. How do many conservatives feel about the English? Tea-sipping nancy-boys, right? Well, think of how they handled the Blitz. How they just kept on working their daily jobs. Now compare that to us. What complete pussies we are when threatened with any tiny sliver of danger.

    “Throw out the Constitution! They’re not really people! They don’t deserve our rights! Torture them for me! Keep me safe!”

    Fucking pussies.

    This is Obama’s worst contribution: Telling the world that powerful Americans are immune from prosecution. “Doesn’t want to dwell in the past” doesn’t apply to us, by the way. Rob a bank or don’t pay your taxes or argue with a security goon and they’ll bloody well dwell on the past in as official a way as it gets. But not when you’re rich and powerful.

    Hell, I’m a little surprised Bernie Madoff went to jail at all. Except that he stole from rich people, too. I guess that’s a no-no. Still, I’ve been waiting for his “death” for some time. The groundwork has already been laid.

  3. Oh, and remember that whole Nuremberg trial thing? Total kangaroo court. We just wanted to kill some more Nazis. “Following orders” is a fine defense, for us!

  4. “This is Bush’s main contribution to America: We became a country that jumps when terrorists want us to. We became a country that tosses out its founding principles as a matter of convenience. We became a nation that tortures and aches to torture again. We respond correctly to fear from domestic as well as foreign terrorists. We recoil just as promptly from bombs as microphones and press conferences. How do many conservatives feel about the English? Tea-sipping nancy-boys, right? Well, think of how they handled the Blitz. How they just kept on working their daily jobs. Now compare that to us. What complete pussies we are when threatened with any tiny sliver of danger.

    “Throw out the Constitution! They’re not really people! They don’t deserve our rights! Torture them for me! Keep me safe!”

    Fucking pussies.”

    You’re very emotional.

    But what the heck, feel free to don that collectivist “we are the world” hair-shirt and sing another chorus of “Kumbaya Gaia, Kumbaya“, if it relieves your psychological torment somewhat.

    By the way, if it makes you feel any better, given your ideology and personality I for one don’t worry if you personally are safe or not. The terrorists can flay you alive in the middle of the street at high noon for all I care.

    Now, before you go, drag out that papier mache’ cross you have constructed, climb up there, and give us another chorus …

    Regards,

    DNW

  5. Mr Kall, just let it go! George Bush is no longer President of the United States, and will never be President of the United States again.

    Hey, Americans, just let it go. Osama bin Laden will never be in a position to knock down the World Trade Centre again; your obsession with him is just Osama Derangement Syndrome.

    No, wait – it’s not that, it’s a simple desire for justice, isn’t it? Bin Laden committed terrible crimes, and should be hounded and bought to justice.

    Of course, starting a war of choice is also a terrible crime – one which got people hung at Nuremberg. Anyone who starts an unnecessary war should also be hounded and bought to justice – Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Miloševi?, George Bush…

    The only derangement syndrome around here is the wingnut assumption that something that is a crime when the leader of Iraq or Serbia does it is not a crime when the leader of the USA does it. Then again, wingnuts notably have certain double standards

    So wingnuts believe it’s alright to commit crimes against humantity if you’re an American. What are they going to assert next – it’s alright to rape if you’re a Republican? That people in the upper tax bracket get to commit cannibalism for free? That if you wear a uniform, you can murder whoever you like?

    You people are all a bunch on Monica Lewinskys – eager to drop to your knees and start sucking whenever you see someone powerful.

  6. Fucking pussies.

    That just about describes it, N. Again, I point at this research:

    High RWA’s are scared. They see the world as a dangerous place, as society teeters on the brink of self-destruction from evil and violence. This fear appears to instigate aggression in them. Second,right-wing authoritarians tend to be highly self-righteous. They think themselves much more moral and upstanding than others—a self perception considerably aided by self-deception, their religious training,and some very efficient guilt evaporators (such as going to confession). This self-righteousness disinhibits their aggressiveness.

    So – RWA followers (i.e. wingnuts) are cowards, violent because they are cowards, and hypocritical because they don’t see the parallels between their own violence and the people they deem their enemies.

  7. Nangleator:
    I did get a bit inflammatory, didn’t I?

    Well, it was a yeahbut moment. Anyway, you have to do something to get yourself ready for the Ravens-Colts game.

  8. And cbmc provided proof why I never consider its loggorhea worthy of direct, honest debate.

    “It’s different when we whine about Bill Clinton for twenty years! it’s different ’cause I say so, and besides, you’re a big poopyhead!” wake me up when you actually have an argument somewhere JH

  9. Obama and Clinton, book-ending the war and constitutional criminal Bush, giving him respectability, even honor as Clinton and Bush are announced as jointly working to help Haitians. It’s a good cause, but ends up conferring respectability upon a man who should be treated as a pariah.

    How funny this is, because I look at the picture and read this and think, President Bush takes the high road again in spite of being the scapegoat for these bookends. He is more than willing to overlook that in order to come to the aid of those in need. That’s a decent man right there. And obviously Obama knows it too or he wouldn’t have sought Bush’s help.

  10. The Phoenician forgets history:

    Of course, starting a war of choice is also a terrible crime – one which got people hung at Nuremberg.

    No, it got the losers hung at Nuremberg. Nazi Germany started a “war of choice” by invading Poland, but it was the free choice of France and the United Kingdom to declare war on the Third Reich for that action. Adolf Hitler didn’t want war with France, and certainly never with the UK, but those two nations had extended a guarantee to Poland that they would defend Polish sovereignty if attacked, even though neither nation was in any position to actually help defend Poland. France and the UK could have taken the decision not to declare war on Germany in 1939, because their territory and sovereignty had not been attacked or compromised.

  11. The Phoenician wrote:

    So wingnuts believe it’s alright to commit crimes against humanity if you’re an American.

    What you foolishly call “crimes against humanity,” I call liberation from tyranny. Perhaps you have forgotten, but Iraq under Saddam Hussein and the Ba’ath Party regime was a brutal dictatorship, where people were routinely terrorized, to preserve the power of the regime, or even just for kicks.

    A very wise professor I had, way back in the 1970s, pointed out something both simple and true: if you have the power to do something, but choose not to do it, you have still taken an action. We had the power to liberate Iraq; had we not done so, we would have chosen to leave the Iraqis in slavery.

    President Bush took a very wise course when he pushed American policy in support of freedom and democracy. That policy was applied directly against the Iraqi and Taliban regimes, but had indirect effects across the world: there were some liberalizations in Libya and on the local level in Egypt, there were free elections in the Palestinian areas, and even the Iranian people have been encouraged, though their regime is still trying to suppress dissent.

    It could be argued that President Bush bit off more than we could chew in pushing his policies, but he was certainly doing the right thing, for the US and for the world.

  12. Nang goes on a rant, then Pho tops it with a screed that makes Nang look positively restrained and rational by comparison:

    Of course, starting a war of choice is also a terrible crime – one which got people hung at Nuremberg. Anyone who starts an unnecessary war should also be hounded and bought to justice – Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Miloševi?, George Bush…

    Yeah, those are apt comparisons … if you’re a totally consumed left wing nut. Really Pho, do you ever look at what you write, and think there’s like a Grand Canyon sized gulf between it and reality?

  13. Dana – We had the power to liberate Iraq; had we not done so, we would have chosen to leave the Iraqis in slavery.

    As it was, I don’t believe there was a single one of us who were in Gulf War 1, that didn’t know when we were told to pull out, that we’d have to come back and finish the job some day. The general feeling was all we were witnessing was a delay of the inevitable. The bad feelings where shared by many in our ranks about the decision of GHB in taking Powell’s advice to pull out. We then had to sit back and watch Saddam’s return to his unfettered process of slaughtering Kurds, including old men, women and children, by the hundreds. Even the regional locals (UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain) were dismayed and had trouble understanding why. I can’t count how many times I was asked that question.

    Let’s not forget about the ‘intelligence’ reports that led to the invasion the second time around. Let’s not forget the Senators and Congressmen on both sides of the aisle, including Kerry and Clinton, who voted to go in, based on the same intelligence GWB had. Let’s not forget the condition of our intelligence agencies, who was in charge, and how they’d been devolved into the deteriorated state they were in. Bad intel can certainly lead to bad decisions, but the elimination of a mass-murdering dictator like Saddam and his psychopathic, torturing sons was a good chapter in the overall saga. History does now and will continue to show Iraq’s a better place as a result.

    Liberals like to use the Blame GWB for Iraq mantra, as if none of their own played any parts in the ongoing events. It’s got to be tough being a Lib, being wrong about most everything most of the time. Living in a world with your head firmly planted. Blaming Conservatives for the turds under every rock and finding out later it was a Liberal who put it there. There is hope though in knowing inside of every Liberal, there’s a Conservative dying to get out.

  14. They think themselves much more moral and upstanding than others—a self perception considerably aided by self-deception, their religious training,and some very efficient guilt evaporators (such as going to confession).

    Whoever wrote that idiot piece obviously knows nothing about the Sacrament of Reconciliation, i.e., confession, or more likely is just engaging in mindless Catholic bashing for the sake of currying favor with his like minded peers. At any rate, as a piece of “Research”, it’s utterly laughable. Still, I suppose if you’re a far left nutjob, it’s something to hang your hat on to justify your own childish assumptions and prejudices …

  15. Well said, Joe, all of it. For starters, if you want to blame a Bush for Iraq, then blame the father for implicitly encouraging the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam, and when they did, sat around and let Saddam slaughter them like sheep while we did nothing.

    Second, the Dems conveniently forget their own role in Iraq War 2. Many of them voted to give Bush Jr. the authority to go into Iraq when they thought it would be quick and easy like the first time, and all of them, including Clinton’s old pal Tony Blair in Britain, believed the intelligence re WMD. Of course, the libs now want to go back and re-write history, and pretend that none of this ever happened.

  16. We became a country that tosses out its founding principles as a matter of convenience. We became a nation that tortures and aches to torture again. We respond correctly to fear from domestic as well as foreign terrorists.

    “Became??” A comment so devoid of historical perspective as to be entirely worthless.

  17. What you foolishly call “crimes against humanity,” I call liberation from tyranny. Perhaps you have forgotten, but Iraq under Saddam Hussein and the Ba’ath Party regime was a brutal dictatorship, where people were routinely terrorized, to preserve the power of the regime, or even just for kicks.

    Say, how did Abu Ghraib work out for people’s petrception of America’s so-called “good intentions”?

    And you do realise that Iraqis did worse under your “liberation” than under ZSaddam’s dictatorship, right?

    Heckova job, Blackie.

  18. Gulf War I ended when it had to. It was a coalition of nations, some of which were Muslim. At least two of those offered crucial bases and ports. I don’t believe they would have supported Bush I going on a hunting trip after Saddam. I was proud of Bush I’s execution of the war. He accomplished his stated goals with only a tiny sacrifice of friendly lives. Sure, I wanted Hussein out, too, but it didn’t seem possible at the time. Perhaps I’m wrong and Bush I screwed up. I don’t know.

    I’ve been reading a lot on here about Gulf War II being about rescuing and liberating and stopping atrocities and so on. Who thinks that’s what it was really about? I’m sure some Iraqis have benefited, but not most. I’m sure some good was done, but it wasn’t the actual reason the war was fought.

    If you believe it was a just war, how come when the “intelligence” about WMD’s started to look pretty ragged, the administration committed treason by outing a CIA agent? In retribution?!

    As for the Democrats who voted for the war, they were spineless in going with the flow. The Democrats in the Bush years seemed to be as fearful about resisting the Republican steamroller as Glenn Beck is of his death panels and concentration camps and thought police. I understand why they did what they did, but I don’t like it. They’re politicians, and get their living from doing what they think the people want, whether or not they think it’s a good idea. They’re still spineless. Aftershocks from the time before, maybe. Now they have a majority and they won’t use it. How infuriating is that? It’s like the victims in a horror movie are all given machine guns and they just hold them at port arms while the killer strolls up and cuts their hearts out, very, very slowly.

  19. The admin did not commit treason by outing a CIA agent. That member of the CIA (who was a not-so-secret member) was outed by her own husband. Get the facts straight on that.

    You also forget about all those proud Iraqis showing their ink-stained fingers as they proudly display their freedom to actually vote. You also forget about the Iraqi man who, amid tears, declared he didn’t know what freedom meant but thanks to US and Coalition forces, his son would. You also forget about what that liberal woman said in her book “Love My Rifle More Than You” regarding the thankfulness of the Iraqi people and regarding tools for WMD creation found inside Iraq (bio labs on wheels, for one). You also forget my own daughter was personally thanked by a prisoner for her being there.

    You forget a lot of facts in your rant.

  20. The America and Americans who are stepping up quickly for a Haiti in extreme duress, with great generosity, are the America and Americans that make me feel proud.

    I wish I could say the same about the America that preemptively invaded a sovereign nation, lied about the reasons, and proceeded to use torture, renditions, and unlimited detention without charges; that is the America of which I am ashamed!

    The twisted logic, false assumptions, and arrogance in this thread are appalling to me. Obviously you people are ready to move on with this disjointed neocon mantra. Next you want it to be Iran, correct? And after that, there will be another, and another, and another. It’s called American hegemony. When will this idiocy, this mania flame out?

  21. Perry, provide a list of nations the US has swallowed up and turned into US property over the last 70 years. Otherwise your accusation is based in deceit. Tell me why so many nations declared Iraq had WMDs prior to our entry, nations that are not necessarily US-lovers. Tell me why WMD-creating labs-on-wheels were found in Iraq if they weren’t to create WMDs. Tell me which war has ever declared prisoners of that war “common criminals” with rights inside another country to a criminal trial.

    And I deny that the US tortured anyone. That did not happen under US orders.

    When will your idiocy, your mania flame out? I have no idea, but I hope, for your sake, that it does soon.

  22. The US is the most philanthropic nation the world has ever known, with billions of dollars spent in foreign aid each year, aid to nations who do not generally vote with the US in the UN (other than Israel).

  23. John H. whines again: “Perry, provide a list of nations the US has swallowed up and turned into US property over the last 70 years.”

    John, I did not make that claim, therefore your question is a red herring.

    Regarding your other questions, they are superfluous. That said, there is no doubt that the US invaded a sovereign nation, in an aggressive and preemptive manner. That is a fact!

    If WMD were the only reason, I might feel a little differently, although I will point out that the WMD allegation was refuted at the time by Hans Blix and Scott Ritter, both of whom had detailed on the ground knowledge. What was wrong with continuing the UN inspections, which is what both Hans Blix and Mohammad el Baradei suggested?

    And then, John, you need to explain to me why, after the invasion, we set out to build a $600 million military headquarters complex in Baghdad in the Green Zone, plus plan for 15 military bases throughout their country. Please explain, John.

    Finally, you don’t think oil was a further motivation for us? I do!

    So after all this sacrifice of life, limb, American and Iraqi alike, and at least a trillion dollars, where are we re Iraq? I’ll let you answer that one as well, John!

  24. John: “And I deny that the US tortured anyone.”

    So, you’re fine with countries at war with us treating our soldiers exactly the same way we’ve treated prisoners? If we’re at war with terrorism, then you have no problem at all with terrorists using our enhanced techniques? That’s not criminal, in your book, because it’s a war, right? If it’s legal for us, it’s legal for them. If we get to say it’s a war, then they’re at war, too, right?

  25. John: “That member of the CIA (who was a not-so-secret member) was outed by her own husband. Get the facts straight on that.”

    “Stop punching yourself! Why are you punching yourself?”

  26. Say, how did Abu Ghraib work out for people’s petrception of America’s so-called “good intentions”?

    One incident does not prove much of anything. And, I’m sorry, but making people pose with women’s underwear on their heads is not quite in the same league as tossing people alive into shredders.

    Of course, the Left is so obsessed with hating America and blaming it for everything that they lose all sense of proportion.

  27. I wish I could say the same about the America that preemptively invaded a sovereign nation, lied about the reasons, and proceeded to use torture, renditions, and unlimited detention without charges; that is the America of which I am ashamed!

    Perry, I think you’re being a bit paranoid here. No one “Lied” about going into Iraq, and as for “Torture” we used waterboarding on exactly three terrorists, so let’s get a grip and cut back on the overheated rhetoric.

  28. John: “And I deny that the US tortured anyone.”
    So, you’re fine with countries at war with us treating our soldiers exactly the same way we’ve treated prisoners? If we’re at war with terrorism, then you have no problem at all with terrorists using our enhanced techniques? That’s not criminal, in your book, because it’s a war, right? If it’s legal for us, it’s legal for them. If we get to say it’s a war, then they’re at war, too, right?

    You know what, Nang? If American civilians (not soldiers) were committing acts of terrorism in another country, some of which killed thousands (9/11), then you bet I’d be okay if they used waterboarding on their leaders if they happened to catch them. Terrorists are scum, they’re like pirates of old, who, if captured, were entitled to nothing more than a summary hanging. Comparing them to US soldiers is just ridiculous.

  29. Sorry Eric, but any torture is still torture. And you are forgetting about the renditions, which often resulted in torture by others, but in our name. This is not the behavior which I expect from my fellow American citizens, and you should not either!

  30. And by the way, Eric, the worst lie was the “mushroom” cloud lie, when the yellow cake allegation turned out to be a lie, repeated by Bush himself, which Cheney et al did their best to cover up, even to the point of outing a CIA analyst. However, the truth is now well established. I don’t expect our leaders to behave in this manner.

  31. No, John, you give no evidence for this statement. Again, you are making stuff up!

    It is well known that Dick Cheney’s office leaked the information to the late Bob Novak.

    Must I refresh your memory with this?

    I guess so. There is a pathology that describes your behavior at times, John, I’m sorry to have to point out! Please stop making things up!!

    And btw, because a person parks in the Langley parking lot does not mean they are a CIA agent. They could be a secretary, a clerk, or have any number of non-agent positions. So your conclusion is totally erroneous and unthinking.

  32. One incident does not prove much of anything. And, I’m sorry, but making people pose with women’s underwear on their heads is not quite in the same league as tossing people alive into shredders.

    Uh-huh:

    Harman said the corpse she posed with likely was murdered during interrogation although a platoon commander said he had died of a heart attack. Harman and another soldier, Corporal Charles Graner unzipped his body bag and took photos of him and “kind of realized right away that there was no way he died of a heart attack because of all the cuts and blood coming out of his nose.” Harman added, “His knees were bruised, his thighs were bruised by his genitals. He had restraint marks on his wrists. “

    Tell me why so many nations declared Iraq had WMDs prior to our entry, nations that are not necessarily US-lovers.

    Uh-huh.

    No one can assert today that the path of war will be shorter than that of the inspections. No one can claim either that it might lead to a safer, more just and more stable world. For war is always the sanction of failure. Would this be our sole recourse in the face of the many challenges at this time?

    So let us allow the United Nations inspectors the time they need for their mission to succeed. But let us together be vigilant and ask Mr. Blix and Mr. ElBaradei to report regularly to the Council. France, for its part, proposes another meeting on March 14 at ministerial level to assess the situation. We will then be able to judge the progress that has been made and what remains to be done.

    Given this context, the use of force is not justified at this time.

    Tell me why WMD-creating labs-on-wheels were found in Iraq if they weren’t to create

    Uh-huh.

    June 15, 2003 It was revealed that the trailers discovered were for the production of hydrogen to fill artillery balloons, as the Iraqis had insisted all along. [16] The artillery balloons were used to get detailed weather data to be used to accurately direct artillery shelling. A British scientist and biological weapons expert was quoted “They are not mobile germ warfare laboratories. You could not use them for making biological weapons. They do not even look like them. They are exactly what the Iraqis said they were – facilities for the production of hydrogen gas to fill balloons.” It was confirmed later that this expert was Dr David Kelly [17]
    [...]
    September 8, 2003
    “ The discovery by U.S. forces in Iraq of two mobile ‘biological weapons laboratories’ was touted by President Bush as clear evidence that Iraq possessed illegal weapons capabilities. However, it now is clear that these so-called labs were nothing more than hydrogen generation units based upon British technology acquired by Iraq in the 1980s, used to fill weather balloons in support of conventional artillery operations, and have absolutely no application for the production of biological agents. ”

    — Scott Ritter, a former United Nations weapons inspector, wrote in the San Francisco Chronicle on September 8, 2003[20]

    No one “Lied” about going into Iraq,

    Uh-huh.

    “We know for a fact that there are weapons there.”
    - Ari Fleischer, January 9, 2003

    “Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.”
    - George W. Bush, January 28, 2003

    “We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more.”
    - Colin Powell, February 5, 2003

    [...]

    “Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.”
    - George Bush, March 18, 2003

    “We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad.”
    - Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003

    and as for “Torture” we used waterboarding on exactly three terrorists,

    Uh-huh

    NEW YORK – The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

    “”There is no question that U.S. interrogations have resulted in deaths,”" said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. “”High-ranking officials who knew about the torture and sat on their hands and those who created and endorsed these policies must be held accountable. America must stop putting its head in the sand and deal with the torture scandal that has rocked our military.”"

    The documents released today include 44 autopsies and death reports as well as a summary of autopsy reports of individuals apprehended in Iraq and Afghanistan. The documents show that detainees died during or after interrogations by Navy Seals, Military Intelligence and “”OGA”" (Other Governmental Agency) — a term, according to the ACLU, that is commonly used to refer to the CIA.

  33. Sorry Eric, but any torture is still torture.

    I stand my my comments to Nang, namely, if American terrorists killed 3,000 people in another country, I’d have no problem with them waterboarding the terrorists to get vital info. Waterboarding isn’t torture, not if it’s part of the training we subject our own troops to.

    But the bigger point is we are at war, and in war, you do what you must to win. Sherman burned Atlanta under President Lincoln, and we nuked two Japanese cities under Truman. I’d say both of those acts were a lot worse than waterboarding three terrorists, yet we accept such as the ugly necessities of achieving victory.

  34. And by the way, Eric, the worst lie was the “mushroom” cloud lie, when the yellow cake allegation turned out to be a lie, repeated by Bush himself

    You’re confusing a mistake for a lie. Bush was mistaken about WMD’s, we all know that now. Besides, that was only one sentence out of a nearly hour long speech, so I don’t understand why liberals are still getting worked up over it.

  35. Eric:“Waterboarding isn’t torture, not if it’s part of the training we subject our own troops to. “

    Eric, this statement makes no sense to me. When I served, we were trained in the various methods of torture, and how to resist them. So it’s been part of training for at least a half a century.

    And furthermore, I get worked up about the mushroom cloud lie, because it was a major point of Bush’s war justification speech, and Rice repeated it a number of times. This was a critical part of convincing Congress and the nation of the invade Iraq policy decision.

  36. And furthermore, I get worked up about the mushroom cloud lie, because it was a major point of Bush’s war justification speech, and Rice repeated it a number of times. This was a critical part of convincing Congress and the nation of the invade Iraq policy decision.

    Except it wasn’t a lie, Perry, it was a mistake. Everyone knew Saddam used to have chemical weapons, because he actually used them. And we knew he had nuclear ambitions as well, that’s why the Israelis blew up his nuclear plant in 1981. The thing that threw everyone off was that no one thought he’d get rid of them before Gulf War 2 started.

  37. Eric:“Waterboarding isn’t torture, not if it’s part of the training we subject our own troops to. “
    Eric, this statement makes no sense to me. When I served, we were trained in the various methods of torture, and how to resist them. So it’s been part of training for at least a half a century.

    I was in the military, too, and while they were allowed to use rough tactics on trainees, using actual torture was strictly forbidden. So you are simply wrong.

  38. — Scott Ritter, a former United Nations weapons inspector, wrote in the San Francisco Chronicle on September 8, 2003[20]

    Scott Ritter has just been charged with attempting to solicit sex with a minor. For the 2nd time.
    Yeah, he’s a great source of credibility …

    NEW YORK – The American Civil Liberties Union today made public

    Ditto the ACLU. They’re a far left advocacy group, with an ideological axe to grind. Try quoting an objective source for once …

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