Transparency?? So is 18 inches of Concrete

Speaking of Transparency, here’s from an article from a Dem challenger to Arlen Spektor in PA for Senator. It’s mostly campaign stuff, but the transparency comment is great.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_661036.html

Rep. Joe Sestak blames Democratic leaders for the plunge in public support for overhauling the health care system, saying Wednesday they failed to defend proposals that helped carry the party to victories in 2008.

They said it would be transparent. Why isn’t it?” said Sestak, a Delaware County Democrat, in a meeting with Tribune-Review editors and reporters. “At times, I find the caucus is a real disappointment. We aren’t transparent, not just to the public but at times to the members.”

Sestak is challenging Sen. Arlen Specter in the May 18 primary, as is Dravosburg’s state Rep. Bill Kortz. Former Rep. Pat Toomey of the Lehigh Valley and Peg Luksik, a Johnstown activist, are seeking the Republican nomination for the seat.

Mostly campaign stuff in the article above.

But Breitbart TV posted eight incidences where BO said Health Care would be televised. C-SPAN may get an hour, the rest in secret.

Nancy Pelosi said this is the most open it has ever been especially for Health Care (See Sestak’s comment above) Also CBS and CNN have complained about the lack of transparency also.

So, how’s that Hopelessness and No Change doing for ya????

88 Comments

  1. Well, it’s transparent how easily an industry can legally bribe congressmen and senators, saturate all media with their propaganda, motivate citizens to protest against their own interests, and convince everyone that the wholly-corporate owned media is ‘liberal’ the whole time it’s shrieking the corporate line.

    Our government, the tool the people used to serve the people, now belongs to the richest. That is crystal clear. Clear as vacuum.

  2. John: The ONLY way lefties can claim the MSM is NOT liberal is if they think it’s not so … b/c it’s not radical. Period. To claim it does not lean left-of-center in its reporting is to be living in an alternate reality.

    Again, period.

  3. John Hitchcock, still incapable of entering a discussion unless he leads off with name-calling & epithets. Do update us when your arguments have grown strong enough to stand up without the help of constant hostility & belittling of the people you disagree with, won’t you, John?

  4. John,
    Liberals think that the fact news organizations are part of large corporations means the editors, reporters and publishers aren’t liberal. It’s kind of a weird argument, given what their products tend to look like. I mean, Hollywood is filled with large corporations, too, but I don’t really hear anyone arguing that their products aren’t filled with liberal/progressive themes.

    Moreover, none of the liberal commenters here addressed the issue presented in the post: Democrats lied repeatedly during the campaign about supporting transparency and oversight, yet they aren’t even including members of their own party in negotiations, let alone the public.

  5. Sharon, I thought my post covered my disgust with the subject matter well. It just seems as though the discussion was hijacked when some of my splattered rage hit a sacred cow.

  6. Sharon:“Moreover, none of the liberal commenters here addressed the issue presented in the post: Democrats lied repeatedly during the campaign about supporting transparency and oversight, yet they aren’t even including members of their own party in negotiations, let alone the public.”

    Sharon, you are taking an absolutist’s and a right-wing partisan position on transparancy, not a surprise to me. I’ll give you credit for consistency.

    Certainly you will have to admit that the WH has been more transparent than the previous eight years. The most recent example has been Obama’s forthright and public briefings on the Christmas bombing intelligence failures. The names of WH visitors have also been made public. That said, I do feel it is asking too much to expect total transparency to be achieved in the first year, assuming that there is such a thing as total transparency in any government.

    Right here you will see that Obama is following up on his promise with an “Open Government Directive”, following the initiative which started last May.

    Unlike the way Repubs operate, in lock-step, I find the Dem controlled Congress quite refreshing, in contrast to what we’ve had. Take the health care reform bill/debate: Up until the recent bill reconciliation process of the House and Senate Bills, the debate within the Dem party has been quite open and transparent, with the Dems pulling no punches against themselves.

    Now, during reconciliation, I for one did not expect transparency here. Party members in both the Repub and Dem caucuses need to work out their strategies and differences in private, in my view.

    We must also recognize that Obama has limited control over Congress, rather, control is in the hands of the leaders. During the bill writing process, the Dems are willing to debate their differences in public, which is both frustrating and refreshing for me, as I think again of the way it was when the Repubs were in charge, secretive and lock-step compliance by all members. I know you Repubs pride yourselves, as you view party discipline as an asset; I view it as a liability for those American citizens who think they deserve to know the contents of the debate.

    So I’ll take the Dem’s limited transparancy and chaotic debate over the Repub’s secrecy and party discipline, any day!

  7. Actually, Nag-a-gator hit it dead on. But what is interesting in the dynamics of this President and a powerful Congress in the same party, the President seems to have little effect on them for his wishes. Yes, BO made healthcare a signature issue, but he has been an absentee landlord. Now it’s documented that BO made promises he couldn’t keep on C-SPAN televising of the debate, and the interesting response is Reid and Pelosi have just blown BO off and said no.

    Even Sestak is saying Pelosi is blowing off Dems because they dare to differ from her.

  8. Nangleator:“Our government, the tool the people used to serve the people, now belongs to the richest. That is crystal clear.”

    You have hit on the worst problem we citizens face: That we still have, even under the Dems, little say in what our government does. Special interests of Corporations and the wealthy control much too much of the agenda, in my view, all done by going around the spirit of the campaign finance laws and the will of the American people. We are becoming more disenfranchised. I am hoping that progressive Dems stay on this issue until it is resolved, because this problem is dragging us down as a nation.

  9. Unlike the way Repubs operate, in lock-step, I find the Dem controlled Congress quite refreshing, in contrast to what we’ve had.

    This sentence, perhaps above all others, demonstrates how clueless Perry really is.

  10. Perry:
    I am hoping that progressive Dems stay on this issue until it is resolved, because this problem is dragging us down as a nation.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Progressives lead us out of this???? It’s the Progressives that put us into this.

  11. More of the JOKE IS ON US, with the beginning of a new pay year, your FED Tax goes UP because that silly stimulus of giving you back your own money is OVER. Back to the higher rates of last January. Another present from BO.

  12. Perry: “I am hoping that progressive Dems stay on this issue until it is resolved, because this problem is dragging us down as a nation.”

    That’s my hope, too, in my more optimistic moments. But if the vitriol, outright lies and veiled threats of the healthcare reform issue are any indication, a move to reform the lobbying industry will thrust this country into open revolt, with twenty percent of the country obediently believing every last Democrat is simultaneously the Antichrist and Hitler resurrected.

  13. Phoenician in a time of Romans:
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Progressives lead us out of this???? It’s the Progressives that put us into this.

    Who was the President for the eight years before Obama in your world, Yorkshire?

    Since the country survived, it wasn’t You!

  14. ““They said it would be transparent. Why isn’t it?” said Sestak, a Delaware County Democrat, in a meeting with Tribune-Review editors and reporters.”

    Good question. Since the Demonicrats are in charge and no one can stop them, why not?

    “Sestak said political deals that Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska and others cut in closing the health care bill were a disgrace: “To think that you would hold out to close a deal for a special interest is absolutely wrong.”

    Nelson gave his critical support to the Senate version of the health care bill after securing a provision for Nebraskans that will require the federal government to permanently pay the entire cost of Medicaid expansion in his state, while paying the costs of expansion in the other 49 states for just three years.

    Nelson could not be reached for comment yesterday.”

    So, what Constitutional principle is involved in the Demonicrats agreeing to relieve the citizens of the State of Nebraska from bearing the burden that they wish to impose on the citizens of all the other states?

  15. Well, it’s transparent how easily an industry can legally bribe congressmen and senators, saturate all media with their propaganda, motivate citizens to protest against their own interests, and convince everyone that the wholly-corporate owned media is ‘liberal’ the whole time it’s shrieking the corporate line.

    This just goes to Liberal Trait # 5, discussed elsewhere, namely, paranoia. Libs really do seem to think that anything that goes against their agenda is somehow part of a plot driven by Big Business. The notion of a free citizenry rising up to challenge their representatives on an issue they are opposed to (health care reform) seems to be utterly alien to them.

  16. Actually, Nag-a-gator hit it dead on. But what is interesting in the dynamics of this President and a powerful Congress in the same party, the President seems to have little effect on them for his wishes. Yes, BO made healthcare a signature issue, but he has been an absentee landlord. Now it’s documented that BO made promises he couldn’t keep on C-SPAN televising of the debate, and the interesting response is Reid and Pelosi have just blown BO off and said no.

    Good point, York.

  17. You have hit on the worst problem we citizens face: That we still have, even under the Dems, little say in what our government does. Special interests of Corporations and the wealthy control much too much of the agenda, in my view, all done by going around the spirit of the campaign finance laws and the will of the American people. We are becoming more disenfranchised. I am hoping that progressive Dems stay on this issue until it is resolved, because this problem is dragging us down as a nation.

    You have an actual point here, even if it’s not the one you intended. The voters don’t want this plan, polls have repeatedly shown that, yet the Dem politicians seem intent on forcing it down our throats anyway. Of course, the libs don’t really believe in democracy, that’s why they keep trying to dismiss the Tea Party protesters as just being tools of the insurance industry.

  18. Of course, the libs don’t really believe in democracy, that’s why they keep trying to dismiss the Tea Party protesters as just being tools of the insurance industry.

    Want to clarify here, plenty of people would never call Tea Party protestors tools of anything. Tools are useful. Tea party protesters are crazy people with a desperate craving for attention, not “tools of the insurance industry.”

  19. cbmc, you obviously have no understanding of those who attended the TEA Parties. They were made up mostly of people who never attended protests in their lives, never imagined themselves attending protests, took time off of work specifically to be seen and heard. They were not part of the “professional” protesters the left bandies about. The TEA Party protesters didn’t even know enough to throw their trash on the ground for the government to clean up later!

  20. Want to clarify here, plenty of people would never call Tea Party protestors tools of anything. Tools are useful. Tea party protesters are crazy people with a desperate craving for attention, not “tools of the insurance industry.”

    Sure. Keep telling yourself that.

  21. cbmc, you obviously have no understanding of those who attended the TEA Parties.

    Hell, John, this just leads to the notion our list needs to be expanded. We now have Liberal Trait # 8, cluelessness. Libs don’t understand conservatives, and furthermore, they don’t want to. Thus they can write off the Tea Party folks as either crazy or easily led dupes, this way, they don’t have to make the effort to confront or even comprehend what they stand for.

    Of course, King George once dismissed the original Tea Party protesters, too. Fortunately, they had the last laugh.

  22. John Hitchcock:
    cbmc, you obviously have no understanding of those who attended the TEA Parties.

    Well John, the MSM and cbmc have no understanding of those who attended the TEA Parties. The MSM ignored them altogether as if they never existed, or if they did cover them, they were selective in their coverage to make it look like something else. But this is the trait of the Progressives to denigrate that which does not support their cause. Over on Iowa Liberal, the whole Tea Party protests were ridiculed, and the and the Progressives like Garafalo just got derogatory in calling the Teabaggers, and SEIU Progressive bosses sent out the goon squads.

  23. If you want to understand what Progressives are, read this. It’s BO’s primer:

    CliffsNotes.com. Progressivism: Wilson. 8 Jan 2010
    Note how Progressives were Anti-Black and Anti-Immigrant (Legal) under Wilson:

    http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/Progressivism-Wilson.topicArticleId-25238,articleId-25194.html

    Read more: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/CliffsReviewTopic/Progressivism-Wilson.topicArticleId-25238,articleId-25194.html?citation=true#ixzz0c4HmEqOt

  24. [i]Of course, King George once dismissed the original Tea Party protesters, too. Fortunately, they had the last laugh.[/i]

    This brings us to Online Wingnut Trait #1: Delusions of Historical Grandiosity. King George dismissed people with real grievances against a tyrant; the Tea Party people of 2009 are crazy people who seek legitimacy by trying to attach their cause to a bunch of patriots who, being dead 200 years, can’t defend themselves against a bunch of morons trying to hitch their wagon to the Founding Fathers. But you don’t have to look far to see what the Tea Party people are like – they do us the favor of actually showing up in pubic with signs that show how crazy they are. (That’s the founder of the tea parties, by the way, so good luck trying to paint him as a fringe member; he’s the standard, not the exception.) But, of course, it’s not the Tea Partiers who make themselves look like nutballs every time they open their mouths. It’s the Big Bad Liberal Media, mommy! They’re being mean to us again!

  25. The next time cbmc brings something of value to the table will be the first time. The next time cbmc comments without adding denigration, insult, and other Pooter-like personality traits will be the first time.

    Thank you, cbmc, now go back to your daily kook website where you can drool with the rest of your peeps.

  26. John Hitchcock:
    You mean like this, Yorkie?

    Something how that man holding the two year old was really a subversive trained to disrupt the gummint.

  27. cbmc:
    This brings us to Online Wingnut Trait #1: Delusions of Historical Grandiosity. King George dismissed people with real grievances against a tyrant; the Tea Party people of 2009 are crazy people who seek legitimacy by trying to attach their cause to a bunch of patriots who, being dead 200 years, can’t defend themselves against a bunch of morons trying to hitch their wagon to the Founding Fathers.

    My what a truly profound statement. Again, the Progressive trait to denigrate and belittle to dismiss anyone who doesn’t agree with them. To cbmc, we don’t exist.

  28. You think that video clip shows the CNN reporter in a bad light? Are there protesters that news people should know enough not to interview because they’ll embarrass the crowd? Is that her failing?

    The lady at the end echoed the man with poor fathering skills. Their protest seemed to be against taxes. The black guy gets elected and suddenly people are shocked… Shocked! that taxes exist.

    Cry me a river.

    If she got fired over that, it’s because CNN is NOT LIBERAL, and she embarrassed somebody in power.

    Here’s an anecdote about the stupidest of the tea party protesters that illustrates my level of respect for them. They go to Washington in large numbers for a protest government spending and complain loudly about the buses, which they have to wait for. Buses that they never normally take. Buses whose existence they are furious about because it’s government spending for the benefit of poor people. They don’t complain because the buses exist at all, but because there aren’t enough of them at the exact moment they actually need them, themselves.

    Remember the People’s Judean Front from the Life of Brian movie? And their complaints about the Romans?

    Stupid. Arrogant. Selfish. Thoughtless. And obedient to Dick Armey, at least for a while.

  29. Naggy showed his racism and made a completely made-up attack on a man because Naggy has nothing of value to say. Of course, I’ve never seen Naggy say anything of value, ever.

  30. And, they delude themselves, and us, by claiming a crowd of 1-2 million, when DC police estimate the crowd to be 50-70K. Moreover, they are led by the likes of the Beckster and Sarah the quittah. What does this tell you about the sanity of these people?

  31. the Tea Party people of 2009 are crazy people who seek legitimacy by trying to attach their cause to a bunch of patriots who, being dead 200 years, can’t defend themselves against a bunch of morons trying to hitch their wagon to the Founding Fathers.

    Liberal Trait #8. ‘Nuff said.

  32. Moreover, they are led by the likes of the Beckster and Sarah the quittah. What does this tell you about the sanity of these people?

    I think you guys are just jealous. We have a genuine grass roots, you have George Soros and his Astroturf. You have to try to dismiss the Tea Party movement because you have none of your own. Where’s all the support for ObamaCare? There ain’t any, that’s why you have to bribe your own senators just to get votes on this ugly mess.

    As for Beck, again jealousy. He gets double the ratings of any of those clowns at MSNBC. And Sarah Palin drives you guys nuts because she’s living proof that you can be a successful woman without being a liberal or a feminist (also, for male libs there’s the frustration in that she’s far more woman than they’ll ever get).

  33. I think you guys are just jealous. We have a genuine grass roots, you have George Soros and his Astroturf.

    Uh-huh:

    Teabaggers are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that “grassroots” demonstrations aren’t orchestrated by corporate lobbyists. Understandable — if you didn’t have any experience organizing a demonstration that didn’t have millions in free PR from Fox News and well-funded GOP fat cats providing a national infrastructure, you wouldn’t know the difference.

    They seem to be particularly upset about links I sent out yesterday on Twitter (using the teaparty hashtags #tcot and #teaparty) regarding a report by Lee Fang at Think Progress documenting the involvement of corporate lobbyists FreedomWorks in organizing the teabaggers. FreedomWorks is run by ladies’ man (and registered lobbyist) Dick Armey, and if they’re not “organizing” the Tea parties, it’s news to them.

    From the FreedomWorks website:

    With your help, we have been able to organize hundreds of Taxpayer Tea Parties across the country, from Santa Barbara, California to Amarillo, Texas, and all the way to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

    []

    If you are not able to organize or attend a Taxpayer Tea Party, you can still help the cause by donating or buying a t-shirt. You can also spread the word via email, facebook and word of mouth. If you would like to post updates on tea parties in your state, or if you’d like to get in touch with other people planning tea parties, visit our Tea Party HQ. We have created an interactive Google map that you can use to locate a tea party near you!

    The “donation” for the Tea Parties page goes to — you guessed it — the FreedomWorks Foundation. The “thank you” lettter is signed by Matt Kibbe, President & CEO, who cut his teeth working for Lee Atwater. He was behind the attempt to get Ralph Nader put on the ballot in Oregon in 2004, prompting a complaint to the FEC of illegal collusion with the GOP.

  34. Following up:

    Despite these attempts to make the “movement” appear organic, the principle organizers of the local events are actually the lobbyist-run think tanks Americans for Prosperity and Freedom Works. The two groups are heavily staffed and well funded, and are providing all the logistical and public relations work necessary for planning coast-to-coast protests:

    – Freedom Works staffers coordinate conference calls among protesters, contacting conservative activists to give them “sign ideas, sample press releases, and a map of events around the country.”

    – Freedom Works staffers apparently moved to “take over” the planning of local events in Florida.

    – Freedom Works provides how-to guides for delivering a “clear message” to the public and media.

    – Freedom Works has several domain addresses — some of them made to look like they were set up by amateurs — to promote the protests.

    – Americans for Prosperity is writing press releases and planning the events in New Jersey, Arizona, New Hampshire, Missouri, Kansas, and several other states.

    This type of corporate ‘astroturfing‘ is nothing new to either organization. While working to promote Social Security privatization, Freedom Works was caught planting one of its operatives as a “single mom” to ask questions to President Bush in a town hall on the subject. Last year, the Wall Street Journal exposed Freedom Works for similarly building “amateur-looking” websites to promote the lobbying interests of Dick Armey, the former Republican Majority Leader who now leads Freedom Works and is a lobbyist for the firm DLA Piper.

    Americans for Prosperity is run by Tim Phillips, who was Ralph Reed’s former partner in the lobbying firm Century Strategies. The group is funded by Koch family foundations — a family whose wealth is derived from the oil industry. Indeed Americans for Prosperity has coordinated pro-drilling ‘grassroots‘ events around the country.

  35. I think you guys are just jealous. We have a genuine grass roots, you have George Soros and his Astroturf.
    Uh-huh:

    That would be nice if it didn’t come from some Far Left website. I guess
    if that’s your principal source of news, you will believe just about anything.

    PS Speaking of lefty writers, it might help if you could find one who knows the basic rules of grammar. Anyone who can say:

    Despite these attempts to make the “movement” appear organic, the principle organizers of the local events are actually the lobbyist-run think tanks Americans for Prosperity and Freedom Works.

    Hey, dumbass, the right word is “Principal”. I’m not likely to take seriously the rantings of someone who couldn’t pass freshman English …

  36. Pho opines:
    Americans for Prosperity is run by Tim Phillips, who was Ralph Reed’s former partner in the lobbying firm Century Strategies. The group is funded by Koch family foundations — a family whose wealth is derived from the oil industry. Indeed Americans for Prosperity has coordinated pro-drilling ‘grassroots‘ events around the country.

    Protesting is not owned by the Left and Progressives only anymore. I think this is what pisses the Left and Progressives more than anything, the Right, and the Tea Parties are fighting back. LOL, this stuff and Sara Palin scares the Left and Progressives. If it didn’t they wouldn’t be denigrating it as much as they do. Better get a few more millions from Soros and his Move-on group.

  37. Perry:
    And, they delude themselves, and us, by claiming a crowd of 1-2 million, when DC police estimate the crowd to be 50-70K. Moreover, they are led by the likes of the Beckster and Sarah the quittah. What does this tell you about the sanity of these people?

    Citation Please, or it’s just an anecdote.

  38. LOL, this stuff and Sara Palin scares the Left and Progressives.

    It’s funny to watch them react to Palin. They try to act like she’s just a lightweight and a joke, but why do they keep obsessing over her all the time? It’s like they know they have to discredit her, but it’s not working because her fans love her, and she inspires the GOP base like no one since Reagan. The more they try to belittle her and write her off as politically irrelevant, the more they show how scared of her they are.

  39. Citation Please, or it’s just an anecdote.

    The citations have been provided in the past.

    However, since liberals have reality on their side, I’m happy to provide them again. Contrast this to the behaviour of wingnuts on this blog, who make unsupported assertion after assertion, and when they do attempt to provide evidence, never address it being shot down immediately.

    Anyway – citationone, two, three, and four.

    But yesterday, someone told a real whopper. ABC News, citing the DC fire department, reported that between 60,000 and 70,000 people had attended the tea party rally at the Capitol. By the time this figure reached Michelle Malkin, however, it had been blown up to 2,000,000. There is a big difference, obviously, between 70,000 and 2,000,000. That’s not a twofold or threefold exaggeration — it’s roughly a thirtyfold exaggeration.

    The way this false estimate came into being is relatively simple: Matt Kibbe, the president of FreedomWorks, lied, claiming that ABC News had reported numbers of between 1.0 and 1.5 million when they never did anything of the sort. A few tweets later, the numbers had been exaggerated still further to 2 million. Kibbe wasn’t “in error”, as Malkin gently puts it. He lied. He did the equivalent of telling people that his penis is 53 inches long.

    Malkin, who to her credit later corrected the error, frets that it might be used to by liberals to “discredit the undeniably massive turnout”. She’s right to be worried — it absolutely will be used that way. If you don’t want to be discredited, then don’t, as Kibbe did, tell a ridiculous (and easily disprovable) lie.

    Malkin herself did not lie; she merely repeated a lie. It does not particularly call into question her character. It does, however, call into question her judgment. The reason is that if there had in fact been 2 million protesters in Washington yesterday, there would have been no need to lie about it — the magnitude of the protests would have been self-evident. I was in Washington for the inauguration, an event at which there really were almost 2 million people present — and let me tell you, it was a Holy Mess. Hotels, charging double or treble their usual rates, were booked weeks in advance. Major stations on the Metro system were shut down for hours at a time. The National Guard was brought in. At least 3,000 people got stuck in a tunnel. Essentially the entirely of the National Mall, from the Capitol to the Washington Monument, was dotted with onlookers. Heaps of trash were left behind. The entire city was basically a warzone for a period of about 20 hours, from midnight through mid-evening.

    But there are no accounts of any of those sorts of things happening yesterday. 70 thousand people, rather, is about the number that will attend the Washington Redskins’ home opener next week. That’s a lot of people. Washington — actually Landover, Maryland, where FedEx Field is located — will be inconvenienced. But it won’t be shut down. Business will go on more or less as usual.

  40. That would be nice if it didn’t come from some Far Left website. I guess
    if that’s your principal source of news, you will believe just about anything.

    The problem you face is that reality has a “Far Left” basis. You have a right to your opinion; you don’t have a right to your own facts.

    When you grow up enough to face reality, you’ll see that.

  41. Eric: “…why do they keep obsessing over (Palin) all the time?”

    Heh. Obsessing. She’s the gift that keeps giving, as far as I’m concerned. She should be a reality show. I am 100% in favor of her running in every possible race she can!

  42. Naggy, the reason people don’t debate you head-on is because you bring absolutely zero worthy of debate. You are, overall, a worthless troll. At least Pooter occupies bottom-of-the-barrel-scrapings caliber and Perry occupies willful blindness/deafness caliber. You bring nothing at all.

  43. “The problem you face is that reality has a “Far Left” basis”

    Another deluded Bonobo worshipper, no doubt.

  44. “It’s funny to watch them react to Palin. They try to act like she’s just a lightweight and a joke, but why do they keep obsessing over her all the time? It’s like they know they have to discredit her, but it’s not working because her fans love her, and she inspires the GOP base like no one since Reagan. The more they try to belittle her and write her off as politically irrelevant, the more they show how scared of her they are.”

    There is nothing that drives the collectivist kind, and especially the so-called “males” of that class, up the wall like a woman who is not, a socialist.

  45. Do remember the left and MSM (redundancy, I know) wrote RR off as a buffoon. And he was highly popular and highly successful, both domestically and abroad. And that sticks in the left’s craw to this day. Now, they’re trying to write someone else off as a RR-esque buffoon. And they might well be repeating their own history on this one.

  46. Heh. Obsessing. She’s the gift that keeps giving, as far as I’m concerned.

    Mmmm – she’s doing a lot for Tina Fey’s retirement fund, that’s for sure.

    She should be a reality show. I am 100% in favor of her running in every possible race she can!

    Oh, hell – I’m in favour of her winning. She’s like Bush Jr with the mask stripped off – what she would do to your country would take decades to do, if it could be undone.

  47. Pooter, anyone with less than four legs is not your type. Stop pretending any biped would deign to flirt with you. It’ll do wonders for your poor mental health (that you so generously described).

  48. The problem you face is that reality has a “Far Left” basis. You have a right to your opinion; you don’t have a right to your own facts.
    When you grow up enough to face reality, you’ll see that.

    In my experience, the people who ramble on about “Reality” the most are usually heavily into drugs. Your first sentence makes no sense at all, and the second is a well overused cliche. But, hey, fire up another fattie or snort another line, and keep telling yourself that left wing pipe dreams are, like, Reality, man!

  49. Heh. Obsessing. She’s the gift that keeps giving, as far as I’m concerned. She should be a reality show. I am 100% in favor of her running in every possible race she can!

    Be careful what you wish for. Remember, they sneered at Reagan once, too …

  50. Naggy, the reason people don’t debate you head-on is because you bring absolutely zero worthy of debate. You are, overall, a worthless troll.

    Take pity on these left wing losers. They know damned well that, in the real world, a woman of Sarah Palin’s caliber wouldn’t give them the time of day. Guess they’ll have to keep playing with their blow up dolls …

  51. “Protesting is not owned by the Left and Progressives only anymore. I think this is what pisses the Left and Progressives more than anything, the Right, and the Tea Parties are fighting back. LOL, this stuff and Sara Palin scares the Left and Progressives. If it didn’t they wouldn’t be denigrating it as much as they do. Better get a few more millions from Soros and his Move-on group.”

    It’s a good observation and one that is increasingly accepted.

    The political left once had pretty much a monopoly on protest and “street action”; or, at least considered that it was in practical terms anyway mostly part of their kit and charter. They too were simply less emotionally and intellectually inhibited from acting out by the same moral training and framework of ethical and metaphysical concepts that conservatives and believers in intrinsic human value, had grown up with.

    Even now, it shocks them near speechless when someone like JohnC remarks that if we accept that we have a living and infinitely flexible Constitution that can be made to say whatever we want it to say, then that blade can just as easily be turned on the organisms of the left, as it can be used by them against conservatives.

    A few years ago it was even more extreme. In one instance I was stopped during the morning at a traffic light as a few members of a “progressive” activist group were herding a big group of chanting elderly pickets in front of the local Republican party headquarters.

    They saw me looking, and so began directing their shouting about social security at me in particular. So I pulled around the corner, and got out of the car and went over.

    As I walked into the group of “seniors” for the discussion, a comparatively younger fellow for that group – maybe 49/50 – showed up and began haranguing them; shouting that they should not listen to me or even talk to me, as my clothing obviously indicated I was an evil business man of some sort.

    Then he moved up through the crowd and confronted me personally, telling me to get off the side walk.

    I laughed, and replied that it was a public sidewalk, that I was younger and bigger and certainly much fitter than he was, and that it was my country too. This seemed to piss him off more, and he shouted (paraphrase) “Not for long. We’re taking charge, and if you don’t like it you can get your capitalist ass out of the country”.

    At that point I informed him that that was a nonstarter, and invited him to try and begin his attempt at dispossession right there and then; otherwise, I would continue to stand there and talk to the elderly pickets.

    He started screaming louder, “FU this, FU that”. They, then got upset at him and his aggressive anger and started saying so. As a result, after making a couple of feeble gestures my way, he retreated back behind the old folks, and worked his way through the throng and around the corner of the building.

    Freed of this miscreant’s interference, we had a nice and reasonable little conversation. No converts to a pure libertarian view, but several of them even posed for a picture, when I said I’d like to get my camera. However they did insist that they didn’t know the goon’s name, when I asked them for it.

    So, later, that afternoon, I went back to where the protest had been held in order to look around, and stumbled across a woman in a short side alley, who was loading up the group’s van with coolers and leftover coffee and other supplies.

    As a kind of joke, I said something to her like: “Power to the people, keep the oppressor class off balance”. She smiled, and apparently taking me for a sympathizer – I had ditched the coat and tie – offered me a coffee.

    I took it, and after uttering some noncommittal boilerplate about the value of protest in a democracy, I asked her what the name of that particular organizer was, as I had forgotten to get it when I was talking to him.

    “Rick Graim” she said.

    “Oh yeah, Thanks”, says I.

    Later I called the organization a couple of times and asked for him by name. He was never in, but his main associate finally was.

    When I got him on I asked him if it was really their intention, and if they thought that it was a good practice, to stir up street-hostility that could lead to physical violence. Paraphrasing again, “Because I’ve met your people, and I don’t really think that they are up for it if others decide to respond in kind, and with the lack of inhibition you exemplify.”

    After sputtering for awhile, he said that they would do what was necessary, that Rick was a valued associate, and that he made no apologies for his methods.

    “Fair enough then, see you on the battlefield”

    And then he began demanding to know what newspaper I worked for. I told him I was just a citizen. He wouldn’t believe it; I was acting in some professional capacity he said.

    And that is really the point.

    These leftist sons-of-bitches cannot – or until recently could not – conceive of the people who they go out of their way to offend and assault as willing to personally push back in even a very mild and measured manner.

    But that has obviously changed now.

    Middle class Americans are regularly throwing their leftist rules and their leftist standards back in their leftist-collectivist faces.

    And it drives them crazy; or, more crazy than they already are.

  52. Eric wrote:

    “Pooter, anyone with less than four legs is not your type. Stop pretending any biped would deign to flirt with you. It’ll do wonders for your poor mental health (that you so generously described).”

    He figures that if he accuses someone with flirting, it might stop the ridicule and laughter. Or at least the expression of it.

  53. I think this is what pisses the Left and Progressives more than anything, the Right, and the Tea Parties are fighting back. LOL, this stuff and Sara Palin scares the Left and Progressives. If it didn’t they wouldn’t be denigrating it as much as they do. Better get a few more millions from Soros and his Move-on group.”

    Oh, this is awesome. So can I hold you guys to this, then: that when a person denigrates his political opposition, it means he’s scared of his opposition? Because that’d make you guys the most round-the-clock fearful group of people in the whole history of the world; all you do is denigrate, belittle, mock and insult from dawn ’til dusk. Splinter from thine own eye before the log from your neighbors, you guys, seriously

  54. Like I said before, cbmc, the next time you contribute something of value will be the first time you contribute something of value. Your mindless blather just takes up space, nothing more.

  55. Oh, this is awesome. So can I hold you guys to this, then: that when a person denigrates his political opposition, it means he’s scared of his opposition? Because that’d make you guys the most round-the-clock fearful group of people in the whole history of the world; all you do is denigrate, belittle, mock and insult from dawn ’til dusk. Splinter from thine own eye before the log from your neighbors, you guys, seriously

    Yup, that’s Harry Reid for you saying in his book BO doesn’t speak like a Negro. Yes, priceless.

  56. Oh, this is awesome. So can I hold you guys to this, then: that when a person denigrates his political opposition, it means he’s scared of his opposition?

    Cbmc, the prime characteristic of wingnut rhetoric is projection. It’s been noted time and time again that RWAs enagage in projection of negative traits and false consensus beliefs more than ordinary people. That’s what makes DNW so laughable.

  57. cbmc:“… all you [wingnuts here] do is denigrate, belittle, mock and insult from dawn ’til dusk. Splinter from thine own eye before the log from your neighbors, you guys, seriously”

    Exactly! Quite obvious just going through this thread. The one exception is Mr. Dana Pico, who presents well researched and documented pieces, and should serve as a model for the rest of you folks. The worst I can say about Dana is that he is guilty of cherry picking, but aren’t we all? I would also single out Sharon (see her blog), who like Dana presents thought provoking posts with her POV.

    For you tea baggers (Eric, John H., Yorkshire, DNW, Hube) it’s mostly all about ad hominems, thus exhibiting the weaknesses of your so-called debating points. At best it’s just your laziness, at worst it’s your lies. And note, I’m not even dealing with the lies, like the claimed protest crowd in DC, which Phoenician, as usual, documented the facts, with which you folks have a problem handling!

    Perhaps your problem is that you folks listen to perpetual and chronic liars like the Beckster, the Drugster, the Armey man, and the Irish twosome on FoxNoise. Try the PBS News Hour for a change, and NPR! Read The Economist and Newsweek! Watch Meet The Press, Fareed Zakaria, and Christiane Amanpour on Sundays. All of these folks present all sides of the issues, and focus on factual information!

  58. “The problem you face is that reality has a “Far Left” basis. You have a right to your opinion; you don’t have a right to your own facts.”

    Reality does indeed have a far left basis. You can see that in the graves scattered throughout Europe, or the mass burials in the Ukraine and Siberia. The reality of the far left is seen in the tens of millions “missing” in China and North Korea. Their reality exists in the executed and murdered victims of far left reality in the prisons of Cuba or across Africa. Yes, Pho, far left reality works every time it’s tried.

    The reality of the far left is if they can’t convince you, they kill you. I just read a blog on the Daily Kos stating Rush Limbaugh is a traitor. In te poll which followed it 31% of the poll takers stated they wanted Rush executed. EXECUTED! Do you see your far left reality? Execute your political opponants but Mirandize terrorists.

    The reality based far left are thugs, despots, control freaks with no humanity. They’ve been murdering people in the name of the left for years and even here the Daily Kos far left reality calls for executions. You people are pathetic.

  59. ” And note, I’m not even dealing with the lies, like the claimed protest crowd in DC, which Phoenician, as usual, documented the facts, with which you folks have a problem handling!”

    Perry, Pho did not document the facts. She repeated an estimate. An estimate is a guess, not a fact. When people estimate they can be high or low and frequently it depends on the agenda fostered by the estimator. I’ve see numbers from 75,000 to 800,000. An estimate or a guess is not a “fact”. Mostly they are opinions.

  60. Perry:
    cbmc:“… all you [wingnuts here] do is denigrate, belittle, mock and insult from dawn ’til dusk. Splinter from thine own eye before the log from your neighbors, you guys, seriously”

    For you tea baggers (Eric, John H., Yorkshire, DNW, Hube) it’s mostly all about ad hominems, thus exhibiting the weaknesses of your so-called debating points.

    Umm, Perry, you praise cmbc for saying the Right denigrates, belittles, insults, etc., then you turn right around and call Eric, John H., me, DNW and Hube a belittling, and insulting name. Please clean your house first, before you moralize on us. You know well what a tea bagger is.

  61. One of those reality based far leftists (perhaps THE farthest far leftist ever), Stalin is attributed to have once said: The death of a man is a tragedy; the death of millions is just a statistic. What a lovely guy to have on your team. Recently I saw a far leftist on TV state: We want to use the power of persuasion, but if that fails we will use the persuasion of power. Another sweetheart of the reality based far left.

  62. Perry sermonizes:
    And note, I’m not even dealing with the lies, like the claimed protest crowd in DC, which Phoenician, as usual, documented the facts, with which you folks have a problem handling!

    Ummm, Perry, here we go again. You brought up the size of the Tea Party crowd in Washington. I ask for a cite which you neglected to add, and called it an anecdote. Sound familiar????

  63. JohnC.:
    One of those reality based far leftists (perhaps THE farthest far leftist ever), Stalin is attributed to have once said: The death of a man is a tragedy; the death of millions is just a statistic. What a lovely guy to have on your team. Recently I saw a far leftist on TV state: We want to use the power of persuasion, but if that fails we will use the persuasion of power. Another sweetheart of the reality based far left.

    That would be Andy Stern the head of SEIU and frequent visitor to the WH. As in the thugs that beat up the handicapped guy in St.Louis. And it’s the same SEIU which BO has said their agenda is his agenda.

  64. Holy Crap!, Yorkshire. I just watched that clip. This Stern clown is one scary pinko! How have we as a nation created in our midst people who are so despotic and anti-American? These reality based far leftists treat “Liberty” like a four letter word.

  65. For you tea baggers (Eric, John H., Yorkshire, DNW, Hube) it’s mostly all about ad hominems, thus exhibiting the weaknesses of your so-called debating points. At best it’s just your laziness, at worst it’s your lies. And note, I’m not even dealing with the lies, like the claimed protest crowd in DC, which Phoenician, as usual, documented the facts, with which you folks have a problem handling!

    Perry, I don’t think I’d mention ad hominems and Pho in the same breath. Might cause people here to ruin their computers when they spit out their coffee guffawing in laughter. Just sayin’ …

  66. Umm, Perry, you praise cmbc for saying the Right denigrates, belittles, insults, etc., then you turn right around and call Eric, John H., me, DNW and Hube a belittling, and insulting name.

    If you look real close, you’ll see Perry uses the word “all”.

    And if you look up “ad hominem” as a logical fallacy, you’ll see it is defined as “the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself.” Attacking both the idea and the person is therefore not a logical fallacy.

    Perry, Pho did not document the facts. She repeated an estimate. An estimate is a guess, not a fact.

    You mean where I presented the estimates of the people of the day at around 60,000-75,000, showed ABC estimating it in the “tens of thousands” at the time, and showed specifically that the inflated numbers could be traced back to a single lie by Matt Kibbe of FreedomWorks, the astroturfing organisation responsible, who claimed ABC was talking about numbers over a million when they weren’t?

    Reality has a well known liberal bias.

    And, gee, there is an objective measure. We can compare statistics on Metro use on the day of the Tea Party (when there was also the Black Family Reunion event going on in the same area) with other known events, such as the Obama inaugeration…

    Guess what?

    According to the Washington Metro Area Transportation Authority (WMATA), 437,624 people rode on the Metro Rail system on Saturday, September 12th. How does that day compare to similar Saturdays?

    September 5th, 2009: 300,963 riders

    August 29th, 2009: 303,997 riders

    August 22th, 2009: 293,200 riders

    So, was Metro ridership up on the day of the protest? Sure. but the increase in riders could at best be charitably described as modest (and surely some of those riders were participants in the National Black Family Reunion event).

    By comparison the Metro ridership for President Obama’s inauguration – an event where most counts put the attendee count at above 1 million – was 1,120,000. This was described by WMATA as “the highest ridership day ever in the transit authority’s history”.

    No recent events have been described this way by the Transportation Authority.

    Thems the facts, John. I suggest you scream and whimper, and perhaps accuse the Metro statistic site of being a leftist conspiracy, as you usually do.

  67. And if you look up “ad hominem” as a logical fallacy, you’ll see it is defined as “the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself.” Attacking both the idea and the person is therefore not a logical fallacy.

    If your ideas are right, then you have no need to attack the person. That is the fallacy. Attacking the person only shows a personal insecurity on the part of the attacker, as if, knowing his ideas are weak, he must resort to insults to carry the day.

    PS I notice you are the main practicioner of name calling here. Perry and most of the others on this site are capable of making their points without resorting to such tactics. You might learn a thing or two from them, and maybe some day be taken seriously in the contest of ideas, instead of being viewed mainly as a childish pest.

  68. If your ideas are right, then you have no need to attack the person. That is the fallacy

    Learn to read, Eric – the fallacy is attacking the person instead of the idea. Attacking both is not a fallacy.

    In your particular case, you are almost always wrong due to ignorance. Further, you seem to enjoy being ignorant. As a result, your position almost always falls on the cruel, stupid and short-sighted side of any debate. I insult you, Eric, because I despise you – it is you and people like you who have made America into a country loathed worldwide.

    Seriously – read up on the Dunning-Kruger effect, and ask some hard questions about yourself.

    PS I notice you are the main practicioner of name calling here.

    Reaaaally? Shall we look through yours and John H’s contributions some time?

  69. If your ideas are right, then you have no need to attack the person. That is the fallacy
    Learn to read, Eric – the fallacy is attacking the person instead of the idea. Attacking both is not a fallacy.

    Of course it is. If we’re having an argument, and suddenly I smack you in the face, it’s still assault and battery, never mind whatever points I was making in the argument beforehand.

    In any event, it still makes you look weak, insecure, and childish.

  70. Pho opines:
    As a result, your position almost always falls on the cruel, stupid and short-sighted side of any debate. I insult you, Eric, because I despise you – it is you and people like you who have made America into a country loathed worldwide.

    You have a point Pho. Since the election of BO, they now loathe us and laugh at us at the same time.

    And this “I insult you, Eric, because I despise you” is the all time hysterical line on this blog.

  71. “And this “I insult you, Eric, because I despise you” is the all time hysterical line on this blog.”

    It sure is. You ought to add it to that trophy wall of hilariously infamous quotes collected on the home page..

  72. DNW:
    “And this “I insult you, Eric, because I despise you” is the all time hysterical line on this blog.”

    It sure is. You ought to add it to that trophy wall of hilariously infamous quotes collected on the home page..

    I think a statement like that may cloud one’s objectivity.

  73. Say, look at this.

    You may be get yourself a pair of bolt cutters and snip the carcass of the lefty albatross class from around your neck by converting to Amish-ism, or -ness or -ology, or whatever. [I do admire that steamed hickory furniture they make and have a couple of the rockers, myself]

    So, if you are Amish, you get a break. If you live in Nebraska, you get a break. Equality before the law.

    We need to drive a political spike through the head of this program, and the ambitions of its supporters.

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