BO’s Analogy of How Private Health Insurance Will Work Against The Public Option

At the NH Town Hall, BO used this wonderful analysis.  He’s saying the Public Option will be run as efficiently and cost effective as the Post Office as compared to UPS and FedEx.

“My answer is that if the private insurance companies are providing a good bargain, and if the public option has to be self-sustaining, I think private insurers should be able to compete.  They do it all the time, I mean, if you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine, right? No, they are.  It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems.”

Can anyone explain why I should be confident with Government Care with an explanation like this???

52 Comments

  1. All three, FedEx, UPS, and the Post Office are private enterprises, and they compete.

    My personal use of all three has been a good experience – never had even one problem. That’s pretty good.

    That said, Obama’s comparison does fall down in that the Public Option would be a government run program competing against private entities.

    I hope that a public option can be configured so as to provide some competition to the private sector, yet not drive them out of business.

    All that said, it does not appear that the public option will be incorporated by the Senate.

    Obama has to know that, therefore he is setting up for a fall back position which will be a compromise with the Senators.

    That’s my take.

  2. Perry:
    All three, FedEx, UPS, and the Post Office are private enterprises, and they compete.

    My personal use of all three has been a good experience – never had even one problem. That’s pretty good.

    I think the USPS is like AMTRACK, quasi public/Government.

    USPS fulfills a service that FedEx/UPS can never fill and that is 3rd class mail. But to relate a story, I mailed something to my son in Iraq. Five weeks later it was return to sender. A week before we got it back, we mailed the same from the UPS store (ironically same distance from here as the USPS) and it got there in a week.

    But, if I were selling something, the phrasing of the comparison really sucked. And, basically, he threw a semi-gummint agency under the bus.

  3. Perry,

    “I hope that a public option can be configured so as to provide some competition to the private sector, yet not drive them out of business.”

    You mean the private sector that you have been bitching about since I started reading this blog?

  4. “USPS fulfills a service that FedEx/UPS can never fill and that is 3rd class mail. But to relate a story, I mailed something to my son in Iraq. Five weeks later it was return to sender. A week before we got it back, we mailed the same from the UPS store (ironically same distance from here as the USPS) and it got there in a week.

    But, if I were selling something, the phrasing of the comparison really sucked. And, basically, he threw a semi-gummint agency under the bus.”

    You’re right. That’s a really brilliant analogy for Obama to use given the dumpsters full of mail that have been in the news; and given the semi-illiterates who waddle into the office here, earphones in place, singing to themselves, and distractedly delivering whatever they manage to recognize as our mail.

    But yeah, the USPS is great if what you are looking for is a mail box full of circulars directed to “householder”.

    And it’s great as a modern jobs program for screw-ups and lost souls too, apparently.

    Ah well, the USPS has provided us with an enduring legacy of sorts: with tales of the Pony Express in the old days, and with grim jokes in the new.

    “What does it mean when you see a flag flying at half-mast at a post office? …”

  5. I have never lost a package shipped by UPS or FedEx but cannot say the same for the USPS.

    The work rules at the USPS encourage featherbedding and inefficiency.

    Yet rates can always be increased.

    Perhaps the USPS will serve as the role model for ObamaCare, if the concept survives.

  6. USPS reminds me of the Slowsky’s on the Comcast Commercials.

    Can you see the advertising for private health insurance paraphrasing the old FedEx Commercial. “Private Care – When you absolutely, positively have to get well”

    And to paraphrase the new USPS package delivery “If you can stuff it in a box, we will bury it”

  7. Perry:
    Yorkshire, I am concerned that the public option has not been explained sufficiently by Obama et al in order to enable us to critique the Obama statement that you quoted.

    As I have learned in the laws of contracts, if it is ambiguious, it goes against the drafter of the statement. And the the writer or speaker is responsible for the terms. BO was quite clear, the public option sucks.

  8. The problem is that it can’t work that way. The public option would have a heavil imbalance of enrollees who could not afford private insurance, and people who cannot get private insurance due to pre-existing conditions. This would create a public option in which the system could not charge the proper actuarial rates, and it would lose money. This means that the government would have to add taxpayer funds to the mix — thus requiring people who can pay their own way to subsidize those who cannot — or it would quickly go broke.

    One thing that seems to be discussed only rarely is that the people who are not covered by private insurance right now are very heavily imbalanced to those who simply cannot pay for health insurance: the poor, the unemployed, and the high risk. No matter what system is created which requires them to pay for health insurance, if they don’t have the money, then they don’t have the money.

  9. A serious question. If the “public option” is not on the table, how can there be any health insurance coverage that covers everybody unless we go to single payer?

  10. From everything I am hearing, there may be as many as 5 versions of the bill between the House and the Senate and it appears no one knows what is in, or not in any of the Bills. And they had planned to pass this in three weeks. And if there is no public option, what will the bill do?

  11. Dana: “The problem is that it can’t work that way.”

    Dana, you don’t know, not a one of us knows how the public option will be structured, assuming even that we actually end up with one.

    Dana: “A serious question. If the “public option” is not on the table, how can there be any health insurance coverage that covers everybody unless we go to single payer?”

    Yes, with a mandate, like we already have for car insurance. For people who cannot afford to pay, a sliding scale could be set up to divide the premium appropriately between governmnet and the person according to their ability to pay. This could be funded the same way uninsured driver’s liability insurance is funded.

    This approach would result in less use of the emergency room for routine stuff, and more use of physicians, physicians’ assistants, and nurse practioners, which should be a large cost saving.

    Another saving is that like the Social Security FICA tax has the younger workers paying for the senior citizen’s security net, the health insurance premiums paid by the younger healthier folks would help pay for the seniors who are more likely to receive care.

    If I were a young man now, I would support this approach in concept, although admittedly, I don’t currently know how much of a hit this will be. I would look on it as my obligation to support our seniors.

    Regarding healthcare benefits for seniors, I think means testing would be appropriate, as I believe the same with social security payments.

    We need to get ourselves as Americans into a mind set where we need to consider ways, in addition to charity and community service, to give back to those less fortunate, to those in need, usually due to no fault of their own. This is a Judeo-Christian value about which we need to remind ourselves, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, ….

  12. Perry wrote:

    “We need to get ourselves as Americans into a mind set where we need to consider ways, in addition to charity and community service,” and the taxes we already pay?

    Why do we “need” to consider other ways? Merely because they, voluntary actions and compelled taxes, are not currently providing enough fro your purposes?

    Can you say Perry, that is can you describe, the conditions wherein the “enough” point might be reached, and liberty might kick in?

    ” … to give back to those less fortunate,”

    You use the word “back”; implying repayment of a debt for goods or services or considerations personally received. Give them “back”, what? What are you asserting one is paying them back for? Are you simply talking about reasonable situations such as where military personnel or police are injured in the line of duty; or even where farmers are injured while pursuing their occupations, and the like?

    Or are you talking of different kinds of things, which need to be paid back? What exactly is being provided that needs to be paid for?

    ” … to those in need, usually due to no fault of their own.”

    Yeah, ok; wounded cops; drovers with broken backs; punch press operators with missing digits; the victims of various kinds of industrial, occupational, or civil accidents: not their fault clearly.

    Hell, how about Granny Yoakum up in the mountains: elderly, alone, and weakening with decrepitude? I agree, let’s help her too, in some way. The states and their counties have a traditional responsibility in this. Let’s encourage them to do their duties honestly and efficiently.

    But what, if anything Perry, would you consider to be one’s own fault?

    Your stating what conditions lie beyond the reach of moral and legal obligation, will help you to clarify matters greatly regarding the extent of your nationwide demands.

    For example, your collectivist comrade in arms, the bitter wool shed boy from England, has said that certain types of people who have brought their chronic misfortunes on themselves (he was speaking I think of overweight people and not homosexuals) might be liable in his preferred allocation regime, to be left to die from their self-induced ailments, if resources were tight.

    Who or what, if anyone or anything, would you say falls into this or a similar category? Those with alcoholism? Drug addiction? Those with manic-depressive or obsessive compulsive and annoying personality disorders? Lassitude, lethargy, slovenliness, gluttony, sexual incontinence, nihilism, low IQ? How about lazy and weak testosterone deficient gynecomastic couch-potato men with big fat asses and soft slender hands?

    Who, if anyone bears fault for their own behavior or problems, Perry? Who is left to do so? A handsome 40 year old philosopher with a string of women on line, making 300 k per year, and able to military press 200 lbs and run 20 miles?

    What does it take?

    ” This is a Judeo-Christian value about which we need to remind ourselves, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, ….”

    Why would a Buddhist or atheist wish to remind themselves of Judeo-Christian values, Perry?

    They are ultimately antithetical; and he who forgets this fact eventually lays himself open to being conned by those who wish to use these values in order to cynically manipulate and exploit the genuine believer. In your relativistic terms, they lay themselves open to be “sold” … a bill of goods.

    Now, if you really wish to adopt Christian values Perry, you are certainly free to do so yourself; and even to strive to convince others of their immutable truth.

    And in so doing successfully, much of the coercing you are now claiming the government needs to do in enforcing the adoption and funding of Christian values, will become unnecessary.

    Let me give you an illustration: There are plenty of Catholic hospitals functioning in areas of the country where mismanaged municipal institutions have crashed and disappeared under the weight of a culture of fraud and crony politics cheered on by an equally morally dysfunctional political clientele.

    Isn’t that an example of our larger political system, or nature, or God if you prefer, sorting dysfunctional moralities out Perry?

    Surely you cannot wish to abolish the ability of our independent laboratories of democracy, to render their empirical results? Better one city or state ruin itself on a boneheaded and unconstitutional gambit than the entire country, eh?

    Maybe you missed your calling, Perry.

    Feeling as you say you do, you should probably be out preaching the Gospel and setting an example by embracing a life of poverty and service, rather than shilling as you are, for the criminal classes of our polity.

    Why attempt to underwrite their continuing malfeasance and dereliction of duty, by spreading the costs universally?

  13. Perry wrote:

    Yes, with a mandate, like we already have for car insurance. For people who cannot afford to pay, a sliding scale could be set up to divide the premium appropriately between governmnet and the person according to their ability to pay. This could be funded the same way uninsured driver’s liability insurance is funded.

    Thing is, if you don’t have insurance on a vehicle, your plates and registration are suspended: you don’t get to (legally) drive the car. If you don’t have health insurance, they can’t make getting sick illegal.

    And, you said it yourself: if people can’t afford to pay, the government will just take money out of the pockets of people who work harder and more productively to give to the slackers.

  14. And, you said it yourself: if people can’t afford to pay, the government will just take money out of the pockets of people who work harder and more productively to give to the slackers.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world:

    The enormous response to the free care was a stark corollary to the hundreds of Americans who have filled town-hall-style meetings throughout the country, angrily expressing their fear of the Obama administration’s proposed changes to the nation’s health care system. The bleachers of patients also reflected the state’s high unemployment, recent reduction in its Medicaid services for the poor and high deductibles and co-payments that have come to define many employer-sponsored insurance programs.

    Many of those here said they lacked insurance, but many others said they had coverage but not enough to meet all their needs — or that they could afford. Some said they were well aware of the larger national health care debate, and were eager for changes.

    Dana, yet again we need to point out that the US pays nearly twice as much per capita than any other Western country, for inferior quality health care.

    If you had a company that did that – charged twice as much to pour inferior concrete – would you consider them productive?

  15. So, let’s see:

    Ana Maria Garcia, who works for Orange County, has health insurance that covers her husband and 3 ½-year-old daughter, but her dental deductibles are too high for them all to get care, she said.

    Ms. Garcia’s husband, Jorge, who was laid off from his custodial job last October, arrived from their home — a 90-minute drive away — at 4 p.m. on Tuesday to get the family’s spot in line.

    But the Garcias’ number never came up, so they slept in their car for a few hours and lined up again early Wednesday morning, awaiting a chance to get root canals and cleanings that Ms. Garcia figured were worth thousands of dollars. They made a friend in the bleachers outside, who gave the family some coffee and hot biscuits for breakfast.

    “Regardless if you are employed or not,” Ms. Garcia said, “everything in California is expensive, and so I can empathize with everyone here. Looking at this crowd, I think this is what people fear health care is going to be with reform. But to me it also shows the need.”

    Last month, the state dropped its dental and vision coverage for MediCal enrollees, and has since capped enrollment in the state’s health insurance program for children of the working poor. Thousands of people across the state lost their coverage in the middle of complex, multimonth procedures and have found themselves at a loss.

    Sammie Edwards, a retired welder, was in the middle of getting dentures made when his care ran out, he said. A friend at a food bank clued him into the free clinic. “A lot of older people are caught in the midst of this,” Mr. Edwards said.

    According to you, anyone who works for the county, has been laid off (in the middle of the depression), is a MediCal enrollee, is a child of the working poor, or is a retiree – is a “slacker”?

  16. Pho:
    Dana, yet again we need to point out that the US pays nearly twice as much per capita than any other Western country, for inferior quality health care.

    Well, if the health care was so damn inferior, I would have been dead 46 years ago, and 32 years ago, but the advances in meds and research pulled me from two diseases that would have killed me if in other parts of the world. Pho, it’s a shame you hate this place so much. Vitriolic like that is slander to me. Please don’t take time to visit this country. And as an advertisement for New Zealand, well, it’s way down on a list of places i would want to visit now.

  17. Well, if the health care was so damn inferior, I would have been dead 46 years ago, and 32 years ago, but the advances in meds and research pulled me from two diseases that would have killed me if in other parts of the world.

    You really do not do logic, do you? “X is worse than Y at doing Z” is not the same thing as saying “X cannot do Z”.

    And as an advertisement for New Zealand, well, it’s way down on a list of places i would want to visit now.

    Try to imagine how little I care. We’ll stick to the intelligent tourists, thanks.

  18. Now, if you really wish to adopt Christian values Perry, you are certainly free to do so yourself; and even to strive to convince others of their immutable truth.

    And in so doing successfully, much of the coercing you are now claiming the government needs to do in enforcing the adoption and funding of Christian values, will become unnecessary.

    Perry, you might find this quote useful:

    “The moral attitudes of dominant or privileged groups are characterised by universal self-deception and hypocrisy. … Since inequalities of privilege are greater than could possibly be defended rationally, the intelligence of privileged groups is usually applied to the task of inventing specious proofs for the theory that universal values spring from, and that general interests are served by, the special privilges which they hold. The most common form of hypocrisy among the privileged classes is to assume that their privileges are the just payments with which society rewards specially useful or meritorious functions.”
    - Reinhold Neibuhr, Moral Man and Immoral Society.

  19. Pho, I would suggest that you never visit this country. I mean if you got sick, you wouldn’t want to be treated in this “inferior quality health care” system.

  20. Faux sez:
    Not at your prices, no. And since my expected life span is greater here (by 2.7 years based on 2005/2006 figures), it’s probably better to get sick at home.

    So, in your logic land, high price means inferior. I got it.

  21. Perry,

    I have received a misdirected e-mail that was apparently intended for you.

    I thought that the best thing would be to forward it to your attention ASAP.

    Office of the Dear Leader
    Washington, D.C.

    Comrade Perry, in an Internet debate on health care you wrote:

    “Yes, with a mandate, like we already have for car insurance …”

    Comrade Perry! This is outrageous! Do not think that your tepid feigning of revolutionary zeal has gone unnoticed.

    Not only have you failed to convince skeptics of the value of our agenda, but your obstructionist motivations are disclosed to acute observers by your use of these ridiculous and discredited analogies as you supposedly attempt to advance our cause!

    Your continued references to automobile insurance mandates are a clear case in point, comrade.

    Everyone, including those counterrevolutionary forces we confront, knows that the automobile insurance mandate premise you flourish about with such wild abandon, is fallacious to the point of being absurd!

    How can you expect this nonsense to carry the day as we confront these Jesuitical reactionaries, so well practiced as they are in the methods of the persuasive, if supplanted, Aristotelian dialectic?

    Comrade Perry, there is no general mandate for anyone owning an automobile to insure it, any more than there is a mandate to ensure a box of toothpicks!

    Speaking as broadly as you are but more accurately; automobile insurance in a capitalist system, as you surely should know comrade, civilly indemnifies the driver of a vehicle to which he has clear title for tortious or other damage he may do to another in the course of using his vehicle on the public highways. The specificity of the context is there for anyone who has, as the capitalist religionists say, eyes to see.

    The only usual legal requirement is that one have insurance to pay for the damage one may do to others with the vehicle under specific use conditions.

    What general requirement is there under your federal law, comrade Perry, that the sheet metal of your own vehicle be insured against damage? Whatever may in this manner be required is contractual and between you and those who hold a lien upon the vehicle you are using. That is another matter entirely, and unfortunately for you and for us, is in no way relevant to the discussion underway!

    Comrade Perry, if you wished to say that in order for children to attend public rather than private schools, they must be vaccinated against small pox, that would be one thing. But that is not your tack, and it is a tack that would not in any event get us where we are trying to go.

    Comrade Perry, why do you persist in trying to make us look ridiculous with your and transparently fallacious arguments?

    Is this a program of deliberate sabotage?

    Watchfully yours,

    Comrade Obama

  22. Phooey

    I’d love to know why my replies keep disappearing.

    They were probably deleted as spam. And rightfully so.

  23. Pho, I would suggest that you never visit this country. I mean if you got sick, you wouldn’t want to be treated in this “inferior quality health care” system.

    You’ll notice there’s no Mayo Clinic in Hobbitland. I suppose if you get a sneeze, they’ll treat you OK. Get something complicated, and, well, the world flocks to the US. Even Ted Kennedy knows he got the best care right here, not up north in Canada …

  24. ” Shorter DNW – anyone falling sick is guilty of “continuing malfeasance and dereliction of duty”.”

    Only if they are already corrupt municipal or state officers; in which case their subsequently falling sick is irrelevant to their dereliction and malfeasance.

    “BTW, assuming you were referencing me above, provide a cite.”

    You assume what you assumed because you are a troll looking for attention.

    Is your name Kwame Kilpatrick? Monica Conyers? Alonzo Bates?

  25. On the subject of mandatory auto insurance, Dana said: “Thing is, if you don’t have insurance on a vehicle, your plates and registration are suspended: you don’t get to (legally) drive the car.

    DNW, Dana is correct, your are incorrect!

  26. Dana said: “And, you said it yourself: if people can’t afford to pay, the government will just take money out of the pockets of people who work harder and more productively to give to the slackers.”

    So waitresses, Walmart associates, MacDonald’s employees, garbage collectors, grass cutters, and other near minimum wage workers are by definition “slackers”, is that it Dana?

    That is elitism right here before our eyes.

    My approach to healthcare is that it is a basic value that flows directly from our Judeo-Christian heritage, to which you pass off, Dana, by introducing the term ‘slackers’.

    This brings to mind the apt quote that Phoenician just posted:
    Reinhold Neibuhr: ““The moral attitudes of dominant or privileged groups are characterised by universal self-deception and hypocrisy. … Since inequalities of privilege are greater than could possibly be defended rationally, the intelligence of privileged groups is usually applied to the task of inventing specious proofs for the theory that universal values spring from, and that general interests are served by, the special privileges which they hold. The most common form of hypocrisy among the privileged classes is to assume that their privileges are the just payments with which society rewards specially useful or meritorious functions.”
    - Reinhold Neibuhr, Moral Man and Immoral Society.”

    Did you read this, Dana?

  27. Perry,

    I’ve received yet another e-mail (copied beloe) that was obviously directed at you, and sent to me in error. Please inform your contact of this problem, so that he may make the appropriate corrections.

    Office of the Dear Leader
    Washington, D.C.

    Comrade Perry,

    We have noticed with interest the most recent communication you have received from the Internet poster who styles himself “Phoenician in a time of Romans”.

    Comrade, do not allow yourself to be distracted by such offers of help from persons who can only do our cause harm in the long run.

    As you know, the goal of we progressives of the vanguard class, is the political implementation of policies informed and shaped by, and only by, the principles of scientific socialism.

    Argumentative recourse to the vague and metaphysically generated expostulations of so-called religious progressives, especially those whose evolving political views provide nothing in the way of consistently sound doctrine based on coherent and scientifically based materialist dogmas, will do us no good.

    What are you going to do with such worthless material, comrade, try and pass yourself off as a believing and practicing Christian?

    Disillusioned utopians, religious or otherwise, fail to ground their arguments on those scientific principles and laws of economic development and morals which we have taken as our starting point for some 150 years, and which we are no doubt now on the verge of actually discovering.

    Hew close to approved teachings, comrade. Beware of those who seek to ally themselves with our cause for the purpose of advancing their own private interests, or to feed some neurotic impulse that has nothing at all to do with our scientifically based agenda.

    Watchfully yours, in social solidarity,

    Comrade Obama

  28. Perry wrote:

    “On the subject of mandatory auto insurance, Dana said: “Thing is, if you don’t have insurance on a vehicle, your plates and registration are suspended: you don’t get to (legally) drive the car.

    DNW, Dana is correct, your are incorrect!”

    Perry, Both Dana and I are correct, while you are wrong.

    Dana has merely placed the insurance requirement in the context of registering the car for licensing on public roads.

    It is probable that in most if not all states, one must show some form of at least personal liability and property damage coverage as a condition for licensing the car for use on public roads and highways.

    One need not license an automobile for highway use in order to own it. That was the point. Ergo …

    You seem to be confusing the titling requirements of the various states with the preconditions for road registration and licensing.

  29. At least in the Keystone State, your insurance company is required to notify DMV if your insurance lapses; DMV can then suspend your plates. To pass the yearly vehicle inspection, you have to have a valid, current insurance card, and you have to have proof of insurance to get your yearly plate renewal sticker.

    No system is perfect, and anyone can break the law if he wishes, but if you get your plates suspended, the police can come and pull them right off the car.

  30. At least in the Keystone State, your insurance company is required to notify DMV if your insurance lapses; DMV can then suspend your plates. To pass the yearly vehicle inspection, you have to have a valid, current insurance card, and you have to have proof of insurance to get your yearly plate renewal sticker.

    No system is perfect, and anyone can break the law if he wishes, but if you get your plates suspended, the police can come and pull them right off the car.

    I assume all of this, as involved and interconnected as it is, is a requirement for operating the car on public roads, and not a precondition for owning it, in Pennsylvania?

    I believe that that is the point and distinction Perry is missing: the extent of, and legal predicate for the state’s interest and involvement.

  31. Boy, DNW is really losing it today. I’m so proud.

    So, in your logic land, high price means inferior. I got it.

    Which part of “And since my expected life span is greater here (by 2.7 years based on 2005/2006 figures), it’s probably better to get sick at home.” did you have problems reading?

    You’ll notice there’s no Mayo Clinic in Hobbitland.

    You’ll also notice that the vast vast majority of Americans will never get to go to the Mayo Clinic when sick.

  32. Faux sez:
    You’ll also notice that the vast vast majority of Americans will never get to go to the Mayo Clinic when sick.

    Why got to Number 2 in MN when I have the top rated hospital 40 miles down the road in Johns Hopkins. All I need to do is ask. JHU and University of MD train the best Trauma Doctors in the world. The neighborhoods surrounding them have a steady supply of victims. So, it can be said that JHU will take the poorest of those in Baltimore without asking for an ability to pay. They also train military doctors in trauma care.

  33. You’ll also notice that the vast vast majority of Americans will never get to go to the Mayo Clinic when sick.

    Well, most likely, they’ll go to some place closer, one that may be as good, just not as famous. Still, the Mayo Clinic turns no one away, I’ve known several people who’ve used it, of course, I live in the same state.

    Point is – Socialized medicine doesn’t produce any Mayo Clinics. You won’t see a Mayo in Castro’s Cuba, that’s for sure!

  34. Point is – Socialized medicine doesn’t produce any Mayo Clinics. You won’t see a Mayo in Castro’s Cuba, that’s for sure!

    But Eric, the super great documentary film producer, Michael Moore, showed us the medical Utopia of the workers paradise called Cuba. He couldn’t be wrong, could he?? Afterall, it was on film. And Wasn’t Castro’s Medical Utopia so great, that he had to call a specialist from Spain to treat his ailment? Wow!

  35. Well, most likely, they’ll go to some place closer, one that may be as good, just not as famous.

    Uh-huh. Gosh, and how would we assess the effects of all of these not-so-famous clinics overall?

    How does it feel to know Americans live shorter lives than Europeans, Japanese, Australians or NZers?

  36. But Eric, the super great documentary film producer, Michael Moore, showed us the medical Utopia of the workers paradise called Cuba. He couldn’t be wrong, could he?? Afterall, it was on film. And Wasn’t Castro’s Medical Utopia so great, that he had to call a specialist from Spain to treat his ailment? Wow!

    Mike Moore was made fun of in the movie An American Carol. In that movie, he interviews Cubans who want nothing but to escape to the US.

  37. How does it feel to know Americans live shorter lives than Europeans, Japanese, Australians or NZers?

    Maybe your statistics are pure BS? Just garbage pulled out of your ass as usual? When foreigners get sick, they don’t go to NZ to get cured. They come here. Our health care is state of the art. Yours is an imitation of ours. Had an MRI lately? Thank an American.

  38. Uh-huh. Gosh, and how would we assess the effects of all of these not-so-famous clinics overall?

    And how do we assess that, even on Pandagon, they’re basically admitting that Soviet style health care is a dead duck in this country? Mostly due to the efforts of the Dear Leader and Queen Nancy Pelosi, who have proposed a 1,000 plus page bill of BS that no sentient human has read, let alone, understands.

  39. Maybe your statistics are pure BS? Just garbage pulled out of your ass as usual?

    From the CIA Worldfactbook, via Wikipedia:

    Rank by
    UN member
    state ? Rank by
    entity ? Entity ? Overall life expectancy at birth ? Male life expectancy at birth ? Female life expectancy at birth ?
    1 Macau ( PRC) 84.379 81.36 87.45
    1 2 Andorra 82.67 80.35 85.14
    2 3 Japan 82.07 78.73 85.59
    3 4 Singapore 81.89 79.29 84.68
    4 5 San Marino 81.88 78.43 85.64
    6 Hong Kong ( PRC) 81.77 79.07 84.69
    7 Gibraltar [4] 80.9 78.5 83.3
    5 8 France (metropolitan) 80.87 77.68 84.23
    6 9 Switzerland 80.62 77.75 83.63
    7 10 Sweden 80.63 78.39 83
    8 11 Australia 80.62 77.8 83.59
    9 13 Iceland 80.43 78.33 82.62
    10 14 Canada 80.34 76.98 83.86
    11 16 Italy 79.94 77.01 83.07
    12 17 Monaco 79.82 75.99 83.85
    13 18 Liechtenstein 79.81 76.24 83.4
    14 19 Spain 79.78 76.46 83.32
    14 19 Norway 79.78 76.46 83.32
    14 19 Israel 79.78 76.46 83.32
    17 24 Greece 79.38 76.85 82.06
    18 25 Austria 79.21 76.32 82.26
    19 27 Malta 79.15 76.95 81.47
    20 28 Netherlands 79.11 76.52 81.82
    21 29 South Korea 79.10 78.10 80.10
    22 30 Luxembourg 79.03 75.76 82.52
    23 32 New Zealand 78.96 75.97 82.08
    24 33 Germany 78.95 75.96 82.11
    25 34 Belgium 78.92 75.75 82.24
    26 37 United Kingdom 78.7 76.23 81.3
    38 European Union 78.7 75.6 82
    27 39 Finland 78.66 75.15 82.31
    28 40 Jordan 78.55 76.04 81.22
    41 Puerto Rico ( US) 78.54 74.6 82.67
    29 42 Bosnia and Herzegovina 78.17 74.57 82.03
    43 Bermuda 78.13 76 80.29
    44 Saint Helena 78.09 75.19 81.15
    30 45 United States 78.06 75.15 80.97

    Let’s stress that again:

    US males – 75.15 years. NZ males 75.97. German males 75.96. Canadian males 76.98. English males 76.23. Aussie males 77.8. French males 77.68. Japanese males 78.73.

    According to your CIA.

    You are an extremely ignorant boy, Eric.

  40. Singapore? Monaco? Hell, why not include the Vatican while you’re at it? Lots of old guys there!

  41. US males – 75.15 years. NZ males 75.97.

    Whoopie. A whole .83 years difference. Which might be accountable to any number of factors having nothing to do with our quality of health care. But, in your zeal to “Score points”, you’ve forgotten we have a much more diverse population with different lifestyles, including areas that tend to suffer a lot of murders and drug abuse. Things like that can affect the statistics, and have nothing to do with health care per se.

    But you don’t care about that. You just want to “Win” an argument as opposed to dealing with actual reality.

  42. A quote from the paragraph preceding Phoe’s list in Wikipedia,

    “This list does not directly reflect the quality of healthcare of the countries listed.”

  43. But, in your zeal to “Score points”, you’ve forgotten we have a much more diverse population with different lifestyles, including areas that tend to suffer a lot of murders and drug abuse.

    Go on, Eric, you can say the word if you want – we all know what you mean…

    And, as I’ve no doubt mentioned before, the “diversity” of Canada, Australia and NZ, relative to size, exceeds that of the States. Check out percentages of foreign-born residents some time.

  44. Whoopie. A whole .83 years difference.

    How much is 10 months of your life worth, Eric?

    But here comes the kicker – you pay more than twice as much as we do per capita for these worse results. You pay twice as much as France, and they’ve got a far better system for the average user.

    But, as everyone realises, you’re arguing from your own ignorance.

  45. What the vast majority of people miss in the 1017 page HR3200 is, if passed, it will spawn 15,000 pages of regulations and be interpreted at the will of the regulation writer. It’s no wonder people conjured up death panels. When you read Sec 1233, it may be what the law says, or you think it says, versus what some regulator will divine from it.

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