Apparently, our Flip-Flopper in Chief has flip-flopped again on the idea of a truth committee aimed at possible prosecution of Bush administration lawyers who offered analysis of interrogation methods.
As I said here, I believe that Barack Obama released these memos, and these particular memos, for political purposes. And it looks like I was right.
Sadly, the debate within the White House over releasing classified documents had little to do with national security. Instead, the argument rested solely on what political advantage could be gained.
A source familiar with White House views said Obama’s advisers are further convinced that letting the public know exactly what the past administration sanctioned will undermine what they see as former vice president Richard B. Cheney’s effort to “box Obama in” by claiming that the executive order heightened the risk of a terrorist attack.
The President was more concerned with winning a political debate with a former vice president than whether such information would compromise national security. In fact, as this story shows, the entire White House was more concerned with political fallout than they were with how our enemies might view such disclosures.
The problem with all this is that Obama’s strategy backfired. Many people have asserted that the interrogation techniques yielded valuable information, and that other techniques had been tried and failed. And others noted that Congress members knew of the techniques and either approved or did not object to them. There were calls to have memos confirming this information released. And as the controversy built, the White House has looked increasingly out of control, thin-skinned and childish.
The White House also misread the public when it comes to the memos and interrogation of terrorists. Most Americans considered the release of these memos to endanger national security. And more Americans think the court system is too concerned with individual rights versus national security. If Obama thought releasing these memos would create more enthusiasm for his weakening of our security, he guessed wrong.
In certain respects, it isn’t surprising that Obama seems to be stepping in the manure with each new day. Obama’s inexperience at running any organization for a significant length of time means he is less prepared to anticipate problems and react with restraint. Worse, Obama’s hubris makes him thin-skinned and unwilling to accept criticism or work with political opponents. Remember “I won,” and his ridiculous attacks on Rush Limbaugh? Couple these with the recent report on the rise of right wing extremists (despite concerns about the report) and the childish but no less dangerous threat regarding health care and budget reconciliation, and you’ve got the makings not of a president but an immature and spoiled brat. What an embarrassment to American citizens.
Cross-posted at Gold-Plated Witch on Wheels.
Sharon, if you’re female, why is there such a strong smell of flop-sweat coming from your direction?
From the AP:
OMG! The rule of law, and the Justice Department doing its job! Oh, the fascism!
The the original witch hunts (and trials) were affairs where the crime was no existent and where there was no evidence that would have satisfied any rational court of law. There has never been proof offered that there was such a thing as a witch.
It became proper in some circles to demean any effort to root out domestic traitors and subversives as ‘witch hunts’. Some thought that Soviet agents such as Harry Dexter White and Alger Hiss were victims of ‘witch hunts’.
Yet the release of the VENONA files during the Clinton era (in response to a FOIA suit) provided information as to treason in high places. The alleged ‘victims’ were not falsely accused and their threat was real.
Now the Left is in a position of power only dreamed of by the likes of Henry Wallace and others. The USSR was seen as less of a threat than in the bad old days but the corrupt and power-hungry Putin considers to spin his evil web. A new and amorphous threat of ‘faith-based extreminsm’ has cost billions of dollars in damage and the loss of thousands of innocent lives. The economic and human costs could be measured in trillions and millions if the fanatics are allowed there way by an unholy domestic alliance of corrupt big city bosses and well-funded radicals.
Our enemies have no formal command and control structure but exploit a vast public telecommunications network. The paranoia of a few is used to justify the only approaches to seek hints of impending attacks. Their ‘shock troops’ are not traditional warriors who wear uniforms or observe even a shadow of the traditional rules of warfare. They shun real combat and use terror and treachery. They can be best fought by extracting information by means that are reliable and effective.
The sympathizers for evil will do anything in their crusade to undermine Western Culture.
keep the crazy comin’, guys, we’re looking through the crystal ball at 2012 and loving our chances
It’s supposed to be in the mid-80s here this weekend, so I thought it most appropriate to add the flip-flop gif to Sharon’s article!
You know, no one has ever bothered to explain why releasing these memos “endangers national security” or whatever? You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means. (Apologies to Inigo Montoya.)
We should be very wary of release of information on sources and methods of gaining intelligence.
The world has always been a dangerous place and why give any help to our enemies?
We have seen American prisoners brutally tortured by their captors not to gain information (what real secrets can be extracted from a captured soldier, sailor, or airman?) but to gain some propaganda advantage. The people with the truly ‘hot’ information are typically far from the combat zone.
We have yet to use any captured terrorists to make any public statements. Our rationale for non-traditional interrogation is the very nature of the war that they have chosen to wage. New situations require new techniques.
There is no comparison to what happened in the Hanoi Hilton and the rather mild treatment of the prisoners at Gitmo. Why reveal what seems to have worked and allow the next generation of terrorists to resist giving in formation that could save American lives (and even cities?
Jeff,
The reason releasing these memos endangers national security is twofold. First, we are still at war and releasing information that helps our enemies, directly and indirectly, endangers our security.
Don’t think our enemies don’t read any and all information released by the government, regardless of the reasoning by that government. In Comrade J, a former KGB agent tells of the various ways he used American news sources to gleen information for the Soviets, and how such info was used. It’s not a stretch to assume that our enemies will use information on interrogation techniques as recruitment tools and as preparation for their soldiers.
The other way this information endangers national security is by rendering such techniques unusable (because they can be defended against by our enemies) and by, essentially, scaring both our operatives and others in the government from even discussing interrogation techniques. You may consider this a good thing, but as various links in previous posts show, there are many in the government that believe we received valuable info from terrorists only after using harsh techniques. You may believe that being nice would have produced similar results, but there’s nothing to base that on–not in their culture or in the behavior displayed by people we have caught.
Pho,
I’m sure you believe that this is simply obeying the rule of law and that there’s nothing political about Obama releasing these memos. Unfortunately, there’s nothing to back up that claim, and we do have news reports to back up the theory that only political consideration was discussed by the White House before releasing these memos.
Obama is laying down a track record that Richard Nixon would love: punish your enemies, smear your critics, strongarm those ostensibly on your side. Do you admire Nixon, too?
Thomas,
There are indications that Republicans could recapture the House in 2010, if Americans continue to be concerned about profligate spending, higher taxes and national security. And 2012 is a bit far away for you to be crowing about reelection. Jimmy Carter probably thought the same thing.
Two words where the direction this is coming from: George Soros.
George Soros. Code name: ORGAN GRINDER
“Phoenician in a time of Romans” is a saint to engage you morons.
We should be very wary of release of information on sources and methods of gaining intelligence.
“We put people in jail and torture them.”
Trust me – everyone else knows that one already. That’s why people don’t invite you to parties any more.
Was it not the Phoenicians who introduced crucifixion to the Romans and also thought that infant sacrifice was a nice tribute to their gods?
Linky.
Nothing like breaking the law, releasing information and trying to hold people accountable to rile up the patriots.
Hey, John, quick question:
Since when in your world is justice and investigating felonies a matter for the popular vote?
Since there was no torture, there was no law broken. Just lost national security and a political witch hunt.
Release the information and the enemy will know the self-imposed limitations of our interrogation techniques. They know exactly how far we will go and how much they need to be prepared to endure should they become captives. What they also know is if we exceed or abandon those self-imposed limitations, our own country will most likely bring charges against the Americans who abuse said limitations. It’s a win-win…for the enemy.
Since there was no torture, there was no law broken
That’s for a jury to decide, not you.
Release the information and the enemy will know the self-imposed limitations of our interrogation techniques. They know exactly how far we will go and how much they need to be prepared to endure should they become captives.
You’ve beaten innocent taxi drivers to death. I think they have a fair idea of how far you’ll go.
We’re also talking about people who are fighting against the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia…
It’s not for a jury to decide, Pho. You know nothing about our legal system.
What happened clearly falls outside the legal definition of torture. Obama’s own legal advisors have told him this, which is why he decided early on not to prosecute the interrogators. Then came the witch hunt against Bush administration legal analysts–who also did nothing wrong. They offered legal opinion, something that is part of their job. They didn’t recommend anything. They didn’t participate in anything. It’s difficult to prosecute lawyers for this.
Finally, even Obama has come to realize that going after the lawyers–a despicable and unheard of proceding–would (and I would say has) blow up in their faces because Republicans and Democrats knew of the techniques and did not object to them.
I realize delusional idiots such as yourself really, really want prosecutions. But they won’t happen. The fallout will be too great for Democrats.
You’ve beaten innocent taxi drivers to death. I think they have a fair idea of how far you’ll go.
We’re also talking about people who are fighting against the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia…
And your government has dealt harshly with alleged paramilitary groups under the amusingly named Terrorism Suppression Act, acts called “state violence.” Why don’t you spend your time condemning your own government instead of blathering about matters you don’t understand, including our legal system.
What happened clearly falls outside the legal definition of torture. Obama’s own legal advisors have told him this, which is why he decided early on not to prosecute the interrogators.
Uh-huh.:
Further
I’m not certain how you parse “I agree with you Mr Chairman, waterboarding is torture.” into an approval of waterboarding, but no doubt you’re stupid enough to try.
One has to wonder: why is President Obama continuing the fights against the Islamists, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and (probably) in nuclear-armed Pakistan, if he is unwilling to actually fight them?
In guerrilla wars, you need information, information to locate and destroy your enemies. Yet our young President has not only eschewed any methods of obtaining the information which could actually work — refusing to interrogate if they don’t cooperate willingly has to be the end result of his policies — but when CIA personnel now feel that they have no cover, information, critical information, simply won’t be obtained. President Obama seems to have the Henry Stimson notion of foreign policy: “Gentlemen don’t read each other’s mail.”
Mr Stimson learned the hard way. As President Hoover’s Secretary of State, he shut down MI-8, the State Department’s cryptanalytic office, saying, “Gentlemen don’t read each other’s mail.” Mr Stimson later served as Secretary of War under Presidents Roosevelt and Truman, where he had to organize, equip and man the United States Army for World War II.
Will President Obama have to learn the hard way?
Yet our young President has not only eschewed any methods of obtaining the information which could actually work
Apart from, you know, the ones experts say work better than torture…
Say the word, Dana, if that’s what you mean – “Obama won’t torture prisoners, who may or may not be guilty, who may or may not have information, which may or may not be relevant, which may or may not be just lying in an attempt to stop the torture.”
It’s a simple word, and a simple idea, but you just have to face it first, Dana.
Your country tortures helpless prisoners.
“Your country tortures helpless prisoners.”
The above statement is true only if you believe -
in Phoenician’s definition of torture….
That keeping prisoners helpless is a outmoded practice…
That the fact that they are prisoners doesn’t mean anything, in which case, maybe Phoenician would like to put a few up at his place.
I suppose we could have just executed them or better yet, give them to the “local authorities”, but there is that innate sense among most people that they would just go back to doing those crazy things that made them prisoners in the first place.
So, if Phoenician’s “definition” of torture saved countless American lives at the expense of some significant discomfort for the prisoners, then arguing the moral high ground is disingenuous, especially from someone who doesn’t live in this country. And that being the case, has a little less credibility then someone who lives under a terrorist threat.
But if the President chooses not to “torture” prisoners, and we are attacked again on our soil within 8 years, It will be interesting to see who forms a congressional committee to demand why the administration in charge didn’t connect the dots….
I understand why you want to keep it simple though, anything else would require some reasonable thought….
Mr Stimson learned the hard way. As President Hoover’s Secretary of State, he shut down MI-8, the State Department’s cryptanalytic office, saying, “Gentlemen don’t read each other’s mail.” Mr Stimson later served as Secretary of War under Presidents Roosevelt and Truman, where he had to organize, equip and man the United States Army for World War II.
Will President Obama have to learn the hard way?
What clandestine agent of the US will be willing to stick his or her’s neck out to get information if your actions will be second guessed and be subject to persecution by your own leaders. Sounds like BO just shut down the CIA and other agencies with this stupid move. It’s just a matter of when, where, and how bad.
I’m not certain how you parse “I agree with you Mr Chairman, waterboarding is torture.” into an approval of waterboarding, but no doubt you’re stupid enough to try.
How do you parse, “”High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization that was attacking this country,” into disapproval of these techniques, but you are undoubtedly stupid enough to try.
Why don’t you spend your time concerned with the abuses in your own country, Pho.
Apart from, you know, the ones experts say work better than torture…
And, as you know, there is considerable dispute as to this (see the statement above).
Say the word, Dana, if that’s what you mean – “Obama won’t torture prisoners
The U.S. doesn’t torture. Read the law.
The above statement is true only if you believe – in Phoenician’s definition of torture….
Which was, of course, the one used by America to prosecute Japanese POWs who waterboarded people, and to court martial a GI who used it on the Vietnamese.
Your country tortures helpless prisoners. It’s a simple statement, and it is endlessly amusing to watch how riled you get squirming around trying to avoid it.
Your country tortures helpless prisoners. It’s a simple statement, and it is endlessly amusing to watch how riled you get squirming around trying to avoid it.
Here – this may help:
This is relevant to the discussion. A female soldier that committed suicide after refusing to take part in the horrors the US government torture policy:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/patt-ii-soldier-who-kille_b_191148.html
This part is especially relevant:
The death of Alyssa Peterson is unspeakably sad, and what was fully in her mind will never be known, especially since her parents apparently knew little about her death until years after it happened. The press, which has rarely challenged the official version of Iraq fatalities, has not probed the incident, to this day (although it is featured in two chapters in my book on Iraq and the media), and crucial pieces of evidence have been redacted. But this tragedy also begs the question: Which interrogation techniques drew her ire?
And were they of such a nature that this might explain why this young woman of Mormon faith and, reportedly, good nature would suddenly turn a gun on herself?
The official Army investigation notes that all papers relating to the interrogations have been destroyed — but confirms that she was extremely unnerved by them and asked to be excused. What do we know about what was going on in Iraq in 2003, beyond credible claims — especially after the release of the torture memos and Senate committee report — that treatment of prisoners was being “Gitmo-ized”?
Perhaps the most specific testimony that may relate to Alyssa Peterson comes from another Arabic-speaking female U.S. soldier who also served in the 101st Airborne at that time in the same region of Iraq. She even wrote a book partly about it. This is former Army sergeant Williams, author of the 2005 memoir, Love My Rifle More Than You. Much of the media publicity about the book focused on her accounts of sexual tension or harassment in Iraq, but it also holds several key passages about interrogations.
In the book, Williams, now 32 and out of the Army, described how she had been recruited to briefly take part in over-the-line interrogations. Like Peterson, she protested torture techniques — such as throwing lit cigarettes at prisoners — and was quickly shifted away. But she told me that she is still haunted by the experience and wonders if she objected strongly enough.
I hope that Dana thinks of his lovely altruistic minded daughter, and what she might be faced with from these kind of reports.
Dana, I wish your daughter the best. and I hope she never does have to deal with these kinds of situations, but, she of course won’t make decisions as to what she is doing in the military. The gov will.
Blu: I suggest you actually take the time to read SGT Williams’ book. She is a self-described liberal and she knowingly debunks the anti-war crowd’s claims within her book. And, yes, my daughter and I both read the book before she joined the Army, which would mean before my daughter spent 15 months as a prison guard in Iraq.
Ah, and here’s the opinion of Americans:
Poll: Most want inquiry into anti-terror tactics:
Huge Majority Favors Investigation of Bush Policies and Actions; Gallup Spins Poll Headline:
Washington Post-ABC News Poll :
I’m surprised you didn’t link to this poll which says most Americans think releasing these memos weakens national security. But you’re not really concerned about national security, are you, Pho? You only want to wail and scream that lawyers should be prosecuted for torture–a truly odd position, one never done before.
BTW, Pho, why aren’t you more concerned with civil rights violations in your own country?
And Blu, there are always those who commit suicide during war. That doesn’t make the policies wrong.
Yeah, that 75% approval rating just makes us all red in the face.
Bush had equally high approval ratings 100 days into his presidency.
BTW, Pho, why aren’t you more concerned with civil rights violations in your own country?
Because the incidents to which you refer indicate the self-correcting nature of a country under the rule of law. the police made mistakes; the judiciary corrected them. Nobody was tortured; nobody was denied their rights; the system eventually gave them justice.
My country doesn’t torture prisoners.
Sharon, these must be some of the darker perspectives within your lifetime. You have come to this. You are in favor of torturing human beings, which is not only horrific itself, but they doidn’t even have a right to a trial, to see if they were doing terrorist activities or not. You won’t believe, that the Bushgang failed you, and you stand by these horrific principles. The Bushgang failed all of us. But, they made enormous amounts of money for he and his buddies. You should look into his family history, and see what you come up with.
I don’t think I have to mention the illegallity, deception, ample evidence of multiple sources, proving he knowingly took us to war, under false pretenses, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings, but also used 911 to implement every outrageous transgression of the laws we all so respect in our country. Sorry, Sharon, You should feel shame for supporting such a horrific policy.
Pho,
That’s not the way others described the incidents involved. Of course, your country isn’t particularly significant, which is, I suppose, why you are so willing to dismiss brutality (your country also has quite a history of it) and want to focus on perceived wrongdoing somewhere else. Log, meet eye.
Blu, I don’t condone torture. The acts involved were perfectly legal under our law. But unlike you, I recognize that we were at war long before 9/11 with an enemy that kills indiscriminantly, including men, women and children whose only wrongdoing was in being in a place where terrorists strike. Harsh techniques? You bet, but we are dealing with people for whom such techniques are necessary to get them to accept their own defeat. We’re not talking police work here, and no, I don’t believe terrorists should be tried in our courts like a pickpocket. You should feel shame for setting up false equivalencies (as does Pho) and expectations. I’d rather waterboard 2 suspects 200 times, saving hundreds or thousands of American lives than lose any Americans because we were too squeamish to face the truth.
Your arguments about the Bush family, in particular are disgusting. I’m sure if I dig around in your family tree, I’d find plenty to smear you with, as though you are responsible for the behavior of your ancestors. Sadly, I thought we were a country that didn’t do that, but nutjobs continue to try it.
We do not know if they were guilty to begin with. The right to find out for some reason, was denied. Soldiers have admitted that they were forced to come up with detainees. One of the things they did, was go into homes, and if there was a gun anywhere, they were taken in as “terrorists”.
Another aspect you ignore is that while normal discord goes on in any community, warzone or not, our government gave $$$ (recall that desperation was the norm) for turning in names to the US in which a supposed “terrorist” name was given with location to pick them up, so whether or not, it was just a personal enemy of an individual in Iraq, or one making IEDs, was not, could not (due to suspension of habeous corpus) be known.
What does this have to do with Barack Obama releasing intelligence reports for political purposes?
Pho,
That’s not the way others described the incidents involved.
Others are wrong.
Blu, I don’t condone torture. The acts involved were perfectly legal under our law.
Your country prosecuted Japanese for performing these acts. They are torture.
Your country tortures helpless prisoners. Your attempts at apologetics show you condone this. You support the torture of helpless prisoners.
Others are wrong.
Um, no, they aren’t.
Your country prosecuted Japanese for performing these acts. They are torture.
No, Pho. My country didn’t prosecute Japanese for performing waterboarding the way Americans have done it. Japanese were prosecuted for war crimes concerning atrocities committed in Nanking, starving civilians, and using prisoners of war to do hazardous work from which they are usually prohibited (among other things). A more complete list can be found here. To argue that we prosecuted Japanese for waterboarding is to diminish the nature of those war crimes.
But I don’t really expect you to accept that. This is just about politics for you.
Others are wrong.
Um, no, they aren’t.
Yes, they are. Or rather, since you haven’t identified these “others” or stated what they have said which is incompatible with my comments, or given sources, you are wrong. Again.
No, Pho. My country didn’t prosecute Japanese for performing waterboarding the way Americans have done it.
Ah, the ,a href=”http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2009/04/24/did-cnns-paul-begala-mangle-facts-waterboarding-history”>latest wingnut meme hits.
Unfortunately:
The Japanese used two types; both were torture. Japanese soldiers were charged with torture for using them. The Americans use the first type; this is torture.
Even better – Reagan’s DOJ Prosecuted Texas Sheriff For Waterboarding Prisoners:
Reagan’s DOJ prosecuted a sheriff with torture for waterboarding.
Waterboarding is torture. Your country tortures helpless prisoners.
Let’s get this straight, so that I’m not accused of squirming from the all knowing Pho….
My Country does not torture helpless prisoners….
My Country does however, extract information from terrorists using methods that Pho finds squeamish. This information is used to prevent these terrorists from continuing to kill innocents. Innocent people who’s only fault in life is the fact that they are “them” as opposed to the “us” of fanatical Islam.
“Your country tortures helpless prisoners” is just a meme that you use to convince yourself of your own moral superiority. You wrap it around yourself like a warm fuzzy blanket. You and others also pontificate about using the “rule of law” on terrorists who thrive on anarchy, and who could care less what you and the liberal West you represent think. You play the moral relativism game with Sharon over the Japanese argument, and deny the ethical superiority of the modern liberal West, while in the same breath denouncing the Government that prevented the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
You don’t want to acknowledge that there are human beings who are radical fanatics who want to destroy the liberal State, who don’t respect social contracts, and want to further their own dogmas at your expense. That’s why you call them helpless prisoners…
So it really is quite a simple question Pho, would you would be willing to die for your beliefs, with the blade against your throat, then have to admit that innocent lives could be saved by harming an evil man?
Only a sociopath would object to that.
Did anyone see how the Taliban in Pak dealt with a man and woman accused, not found guilty, but accused of having an affair on the news last night? It wasn’t torture, it wasn’t asking a question nicely, they just shot them to death on the spot. That’s the scum we’re dealing with. And Pho, if you want to kindly question folk like this, you will be laughed in your face.
I think we should waterboard Pho.
I think we should waterboard Pho.
We have a big watermain break near work today, so, we can’t waste the water.
Use Pho to plug the break.
My country didn’t prosecute Japanese for performing waterboarding the way Americans have done it.
just want to make sure this gets the attention it deserves, as it’s one of the funniest things ever
“My Country does however, extract information from terrorists using methods that Pho finds squeamish.”
Yup, torture is manly and anyone against it is a wimp. Oh, did I say torture? Look at my waving hands while I shout down your objections. Torture is far too complex a subject for anyone else to understand. Just accept that when they do it, it’s torture, and when we do it it’s enhanced stuff.
Sure, waterboarding has been classified as torture in the United States for over a hundred years. But that was the old United States. We’re fighting people that don’t play fair, and that’s hard! That means we get to be as evil as we want to be, because we’re the good guys, you know?
“… rendering such techniques unusable (because they can be defended against by our enemies)
How do you defend against waterboarding? Grow gills?
“…there are many in the government that believe we received valuable info from terrorists only after using harsh techniques.”
Yes, those are known as ‘idiots.’ I’ll bet in the vast stacks of ‘data’ that babbled forth from the mouths of the innocent torture victims, I’m sure a small percentage matched reality, to some degree. Doesn’t matter. Illegal. Immoral. No country deserves to live that uses torture for any reason.
(Heh. Bet I made some heads pop off with the word “innocent.” No charges, no convictions: innocent by American law.)
Nangleator: Boy, I’m happy somebody else has to do the dirty work of protecting the country so I can scream and call them names, acting as though *I* would never do it.
Thomas,
Did you read up on what the Japanese did in the form of water torture? We’re not just talking about glops of water on a rag. They did all sorts of horrible things, which constituted only a small part of why they were prosecuted for war crimes. But then, I’m sure you guys probably think glops of water are more important than, say, what was done to Nanking, right?
Yes Sharon. It was terrible and inhuman, because it happened to Americans. We get it. Your sense of humanity is conditional upon whether the people demanding it are American or not.
Thomas, I know it’s a lot more fun to build strawmen and argue with them, but try to keep to reality. You know, the one where I write something and you respond to what I wrote, not what you want to believe I wrote.
But then, I’m sure you guys probably think glops of water are more important than, say, what was done to Nanking, right?
Yes Sharon. It was terrible and inhuman, because it happened to Americans. We get it. Your sense of humanity is conditional upon whether the people demanding it are American or not.
Yup, Nanking is an American town.
TT = epic fail
LOL I have no defense, huge fail
on the plus side the Wikipedia reveals that the Japanese in the aftermath wrote the GOP template for making excuses instead of manning up
Sharon: They weren’t protecting me. They were vastly inflating the number of future terrorists, and giving them a moral justification with which we can not argue. Our torturers broke our own laws, knowingly, in order to create false confessions to justify a war they wanted to fight, which made their corporate friends immeasurably wealthier. Some of them thought they were Jack Bauer, of course, and not corporate lapdogs. I don’t sleep easier knowing either type of people are running around with guns and power.
If we don’t punish the lawbreakers, even more terror is on its way.
My Country does not torture helpless prisoners….
They’re prisoners, they’re helpless, they’re tortured, the people doing the torturing are employed by the government of the United States of America.
Your country tortures helpless prisoners.
My Country does however, extract information from terrorists using methods that Pho finds squeamish.
Your country beats taxi drivers to death. While torturing prisoners.
Nah, no torturing prisoners. We’ve been through that. Dunno about taxi driver. Maybe they need it.
Helpless prisoners? We’re talking about people who planned to kill thousands of Americans, who supported the killing of Americans, who fought our troops on the battlefield. That they’ve been caught doesn’t make them helpless. Given the chance, they would attack more.
But I’ve got an idea for you, Pho. If you really believe that these people are so innocent, why don’t you call Barack Obama and suggest that we house them in your country? Maybe your town! After all, they’re “helpless.”
Nangleator,
So, if it was torture that makes them hate us, what was their excuse for attacking the U.S. before we invaded Iraq? Maybe all those McDonald’s really pissed em off.
We’re talking about people who have had a war with the West for decades. Slapping guys on their bellies, putting catapillars on ‘em and, yes, waterboarding, isn’t what got them going.
On second thought, I hope they are helpless prisoners. Maybe then they’ll talk.
Nah, no torturing prisoners. We’ve been through that.
Yes, you’re wrong. If it’s torture for the Japanese, it’s torture for the Americans.
Your ignorance about the taxi driver beaten to death by Americans demonstrates just how uninforme you are. As usual.
Your country tortures helpless prisoners.
No, I’m not wrong, Pho. You are ignorant.
No, I’m not wrong, Pho. You are ignorant.
Uh-huh.
They’re not nice people. I get it, Sharon. They want to do bad things and have done bad things and will do bad things again, if they can. I get it. I’m not saying I want to be nice to them, or I want them to win any fights, or even draw another breath.
My point is, do you want to be as bad as they are? As stupid and evil? Do you want to belong to a mad dog of a nation, even if it is the biggest, craziest dog? Are you really just like them, but born under a different flag?
I want my country to be what we used to aim for. I want us to take our own laws seriously. I want the world to think of us as having responsibility commensurate with our strength. I want to be the good guys.
If Jeffrey Dahmer had been dragged out into the street by the cops who caught him, and they beat him and tortured him and stuffed bags of cocaine into his pockets in front of a live television camera, what would we have done? Let him go, after we realized the case against him was toast. We’d fire and jail the cops. That would be the legal thing to do, and it would teach the cops to do their job right, so it wouldn’t happen again.
Our government got lazy, vengeful, and possibly deceitful about skipping over the right way of doing things. They wrung thousands of bits of spurious information out of the detainees and sent our troops in the field rushing around like so many Barney Fifes. Well, our FBI knew how to interrogate and prosecute. Our troops know how to act on good information. Bushco didn’t care.
So dozens or hundreds of real terrorists can’t be found or properly prosecuted. Millions more people around the world are our bitter enemies now. Scores of our politicians and talking heads are supporting those stupid, damaging, illegal policies, even when they call it torture. Bushco spent more than every other president before him, combined, in fighting one just war badly, and one unjust war slightly better.
Obama has an enormous job ahead of him, and he’s dragging that huge anchor of a Republican party behind him with grace and a smile.
Obama has an enormous job ahead of him, and he’s dragging that huge anchor of a Republican party behind him with grace and a smile.
What huge anchor? – Spektor just handed him the keys to Nirvanna. Of course we’re going to pay and pay for Nirvanna without any checks and balances. Now the Dems can make the paradise they want where nobody works, free food, housing and medical care and not a bother in the world. It will be Paradise here on earth with the one, the messiah.
Let me be perfectly clear here.
You do not prosecute terrorists.
You KILL them.
Nangleator, if you genuinely cannot tell the difference between interrogation techniques and torture, then there’s really no hope of an intelligent conversation with you.
All countries have used harsh interrogation techniques when necessary. The difference between civilized countries and non-civilized societies like imperial Japan are the purposes and theories behind them, as well as some of the techniques used. We’re not talking about the drownings that the Japanese did, the forced marches, the multiple bayonneting of civilians, the barbaric and bizarre killings in places like Nanking. To argue that waterboarding a couple of prisoners equates with this is just plain stupid. There’s simply no other way to put it. Arguing that the U.S. waterboarding terrorists compares to any of this is moronic and only possible because you have a safe, cushy existence. I’m happy, frankly, that you (and Pho) have such safe lives that you can pontificate on how aaaawwwwful it is that there are people who will do the things to ensure your safe lives. You don’t have to appreciate it; it’s done for you anyway.
Let me be perfectly clear here.
You do not prosecute terrorists.
You KILL them.
You also kill taxi-drivers, wedding parties, women and children. Well done.
John Hitchcockd, I believe one of the ten commandmants is “Thou shalt not kill“. Don’t blame me for saying it, John, it was just Jesus’s fault. Oh, ya think Jesus might be a little bit more pissed off, and bummed if he knew that they were not necessariy terrorists, and there was no chance to prove a yes or no, on guilty? Or is it just the human fetuses that you are concerned about. Certainly not,innocent human beings, you are not advocating for, are you John? I know that you are a big fan of Christianity, so I thought it might be of interest to you.
John, I’m talking about the use of United States torture tactics that go far beyond waterboarding. All records of it have been destroyed. Why’s that? Accompanying the elimination of habeous corpus, you know what that is, John? Torture on anyone for any reason, no explanation required by GWB was the bottom line and the only thing missing was a mote and a dungeon. GWB decided all of that kind of policy was good US style policy. (wrong century, GWB). Why do you want the subject to go straight to the executioner without a jury or judge? You don’t think that they are real human beings?
If there is no way of knowing if someone is involved with terrorist activity, why is it okay to torture them, and also do it unto death? Yes it happens more often than you might think. It’s not the kind of thing they want to publicize, you know. Just wonder how your “thou shalt not kill” vibe is going in your moral parameter zone. Is it blinking red?
I believe the last number I’d heard was over 100 deaths from the torture programs. Also, as word was out about the American torture program which contradicted the supposed “bring democracy” program, when bullshit operations like torture were going on, the warnings of those that said the US are here to take the oil, not bring democracy, come find out, sadly for many it was apparently true. That kind of put a spear through the hope and heart of the supposed democracy. The big “wonderful vote was found to have been manipulated by US, despite the hope that democracy would click into place and the Amricans would get the hell out. The pissed off, after having lost family members, friends, friends’ children, uncles, aunts, parents, brothers, and sisters, and grandparents, and nieces and nephews, and infants, if not through bombing, through cluster bombs going off much later, or cancer from the depleted uranium, or stepping onto land mines we use, we are using all that and more over there. Also, the rise of birth defects has increased, in multiple X over the norm from it. Well, guess what. More of them, decided that doing what we did to them, an innocent country, maybe killing them back, wasn’t such a bad idea (to them). Maybe just letting the US kill every one and cower would have been your prefered way of them operating. Getting bombed 20,700 times with who knows how many bombs in each sortie, well, that didn’t please the Iraqis. I guess they were supposed to be grateful by your standards. Please don’t tell me I have to remind you that there was no connection with Iraq and 911. That’s long known now.
Gee, how’s that helping anyone but the warmongers themselves. It’s perpetuating. It doesn’t take someone with a social sciences doctorate, to see all this I speak of which is actually obvious. Oh, but when the Social sciences doctorates say it, the universities are being “gasp….liberal and ‘biased’”. No, just recognition of how having your country getting bombed might feel like. It would suck.
Accompanying the elimination of habeous corpus, you know what that is, John? Blu
After you learn to spell it, how about defining how such an ‘elimination’ was so injurious to mankind?
What about that New York lawyer who was helping an imprisoned terrorist to communicate with his associates? Who could approve of that?
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder. (The Hebrew for “murder” here refers to a premeditated and deliberate act.)
Exodus 21:12 Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 21:15 Anyone who attacks his father or mother must be put to death.
Exodus 21:16 Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
Exodus 21:17 Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
Exodus 22:18 Do not allow a sorceress to live.
Exodus 22:19 Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.
First, Jesus did not say “You shall not kill.” Second, the Ten Commandments did not say “You shall not kill” but did say “You shall not murder.” Third, there are many times where God ordered people be killed.
I know you like mocking me, blu, but as usual you do not have your facts straight.
Oh, and blu, my daughter spent 15 months as a prison guard in Iraq. Do you think I just might know a little bit about her time there?
Hmm, John, looks like there some contradictions going on, doesn’t it? Which is why so many have concluded that the Bible has its limits, and has been used as a means of manipulation, altered for that purpose.
So, you think that if your daughter gets angry with you and curses you, she should be put to death?
I feel bad for your daughter having to witness the worst policies the US has ever put into its policies. As a soldier, her ability to speak out is prohibited.
Art, thank you for pointing out the correct spelling of habeous corpus. It didn’t look right when I typed it. I should be more careful.
Remember that these people, mostly are innocent.
http://mwcnews.net/images/stories/Abuse/Abu-Ghraib-Torture1.jpg
Blu, read that book you referenced and obviously haven’t read. I double-dog dare you.
Yes, I know you hadn’t expected to come across a person who actually read Love My Rifle More Than You by SGT Williams, but you have. I read it. Cover to cover. While on vacation with my daughter. Before she went to boot camp.
You’re right, blu. America is a downright mean country. Now, will you just STFU and go away? It’s just amazing to me that you want to live in a place that is the problem of the world. I mean, nobody was kidnapping, murdering, bombing, etc. Americans all over the world before the War on Terror. We know that, somehow, the 9/11 terrorists were fortune tellers who knew America was gonna be oh so mean to Middle Easterners and that’s why they flew airplanes into our buildings. Oh, wait. I keep forgetting. The 19 guys who flew airplanes didn’t really kill all those people. It was our government. Or something.
And I guess all those bombings, murders, kidnappings, etc. that happened before that were just because they knew some mercenaries would kill taxi drivers. Or something.
Geez, it’s so hard keeping the lunacy straight some times.
Sharon: “Boy, I’m happy somebody else has to do the dirty work of protecting the country so I can scream and call them names, acting as though *I* would never do it.”
I keep trying to get her to type “You can’t handle the truth,” in all caps.
Hey, can you handle the truth? Do you believe statements from soldiers? It’s
http://www.truthout.org/video/winter-soldier-2008-the-rules-war-hart-viges
http://www.mahalo.com/Winter_Soldier
Ahh, blu points to a book she hasn’t read, finds someone who has read it, and quickly shifts direction. That is quite typical of blu.
War crimes….looks like your boy thinks it is not acceptable. Little did he know that his rightful declaration of the necessity of prosecution would put him in the hot seat.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7105
Okay, John Hitchcock, I’ll find the link myself to review the book. Why couldn’t you bring a link to us? Amazon offers such things.
So, John, you and your daughter read the book, why don’t you summarize why I need enlightenment, and “need to read it”. What am I going to “realize” ? What a fine thing it is to bomb a country that was proven NEVER to be a threat from us? Fill me in.
Sharon, your perspective, your “reality can be summarized as “or something”. Vague, and indifferent to innocent human beings. 911 was not an excuse to invade Iraq. Even the lame 911 Commission declared that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and that was after the attempts by the WH to link it, Donald Rumsfield specifically going into Pentagon offices, asking personnel to find a way to link it. Iraq was on the Bushgang’s agenda long before 9-11.
What a fine thing it is to bomb a country that was proven NEVER to be a threat from us? Fill me in.
I should have said NEVER PROVEN TO BE A THREAT TO US. Obviously, we have shown to be a threat to them.
Sharon: “Boy, I’m happy somebody else has to do the dirty work of protecting the country so I can scream and call them names, acting as though *I* would never do it.”
I keep trying to get her to type “You can’t handle the truth,” in all caps.
Never mind. She’ll come up with something very soon so breathtakingly ignorant that you’ll remain entertained for teh rest of the week.
Blu: You referenced the book that you didn’t read in a foolhardy attempt to prove a point. I read the book. You should read the book that you referenced that you didn’t read when you were trying to prove a point the book you referenced countered. But if you don’t want to read it since it was written by a self-proclaimed liberal who shoots holes in the anti-war arguments, I fully understand. We don’t want facts to get in the way of your logorrhea.
I keep trying to get her to type “You can’t handle the truth,” in all caps.
Ah, sarcasm is lost on the ignorant, I suppose.
Sharon, your perspective, your “reality can be summarized as “or something”. Vague, and indifferent to innocent human beings. 911 was not an excuse to invade Iraq. Even the lame 911 Commission declared that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and that was after the attempts by the WH to link it, Donald Rumsfield specifically going into Pentagon offices, asking personnel to find a way to link it. Iraq was on the Bushgang’s agenda long before 9-11.
Blu, I use “or something” as shorthand for “or some other dumbass theory supplied by those hellbent on believing the U.S. is the source of evil in the world. It just gets so tiresome typing that out.
And please. We’ve discussed why Iraq was a target in the War on Terror so many times over the last 3 years. You want to believe that Saddam Hussein was no threat to us. I point out his support for terrorists and attempt to assassinate George H.W. Bush. You argue that those weren’t real threats. I point out Saddam’s repeated resistance to the requirements the U.N. placed on him at the end of the Gulf War. And so on. And so on. It’s all so tiresome, this talking to you–and Pho, for that matter–like you are intelligent people interested in learning truth. Instead, we’re treated to repeated links to lunatic sites, comparisons with Nazis, Imperial Japan, terrorists, and whoever else seems a good enough strawman, and ad hominem attacks. All in a day’s work, really.
Well, I’m sorry, Sharon, I guess it isn’t evil to bomb hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Torturing innocent people, well, that’s okay too.
How do you use bombs during war, Blu?
and, Sharon you bought all the lies, and amazingly, still are of all the deceptive “reasons” for going to war.
and there are legitimate comparisons to what the despots of history have done, in contrast to GWB, and the contrast part, NOT MUCH.
Blu, you never did watch that vid I posted, did you?
and without actually looking at the “lunatic” sites I bring with science backing what I present, well, you can’t call it anything, because you not only bypassed looking, you won’t look. You’ve got the dreadful learning disorder of “already knowing everything” which actually makes you a fool. And the “lunatic” thing, well over 2/3 of NYC see things my way on 9/11. There is going to be a vote in November, after the signatures are amassed. There isn’t any problems amassing them to get an honest reinvestigation of 9-11-01. After all, even NIST has admitted that WTC7 went down with explosives now. Another fellow from NIST has declared that the organization has been used by the government to come up with the desired results by the administration to usher in policies that they have in mind.
Yes, I looked at it, and compared to other soldiers statements, see Winter soldiers, look it up, catch what they have said, regarding the Iraq and Afghansistan wars, your video clip pales in comparison. I don’t agree with your propagana prop guy. Just google up “Winter soldiers” statements. You’ll realize hopefully what you need to, to get an honest, objective perspective. Also, google up “Dahr Jamail” who was an independent reporter, risking his life in Iraq, NOT embedded with troops which skews their ability to report as honestly as they could otherwise.
Shorter Blu: I’m right and you’re wrong.
BTW, how do you use bombs during war, Blu?
Shorter Sharon: “I won’t look at anything but but pleases my perspective, therefore, I’m ‘right’”. Otherwise known as “deaf, dumb and blind” or “Ignorance is bliss”
Bombs should never have been be dropped. You are a fool to keep buying the “reasoning” for starting this war. Everyone and anyone with any pursuit of knowledge knows that the “Sadaam Hussein supported terrorists” line was BS, drummed up to start the war. I guess I’ll have to bring you a link. Would you even bother to look, if I went to that trouble? You don’t even know that war seeking presidents lie? Preceding the war, Bush kept saying, “I hope we don’t have to go to war in Iraq.” There was more coopoeration from Sadaam Hussein than you know, because you’re a MSM chump. The plan was to go to war in Iraq before Bush took office, even. Mickey Herskowitz (Bush family friend) who wrote of Bush, told of Bush’s statement to invade Iraq, and how he was not going to “waste political capital” like his father did.
Oh, by the way, the Carlyle Group of which GHWBush is part of along with other neo-cons, have made so much money in the last 8 years through this war, that it wont even disclose to the public, how much. Never mind that the public is paying. Par for the Bush course. Secret. Secrecy in government always is a negative and leads to abuse. That is a historical fact.
Well, I happen to believe what this brillian Republican general, Congressional Medal of Honor winner has said.
http://warisaracket.com
Here’s a link to start understanding. Tip of the iceberg though!
http://www.nogw.com/download/2006_whos_behind_aq.pdf
Bombs should never have been be dropped.
So, dropping bombs equates to torture now? How do we prosecute wars, Blu?
Everyone and anyone with any pursuit of knowledge knows that the “Sadaam Hussein supported terrorists” line was BS
Really?
Come on, Blu. At least you gotta admit that Saddam Hussein supported suicide bombers and donated money and other resources to terrorists.
Sharon, the link you posted is from the Hoover Institute. You do know, don’t you, that many of the Bush administration were part of it? Many of them are in the Carlyle Group, who is profiting off of the war. Didn’t Eisenhower(the REPUBLICAN) say that influence of the military industrial complex was going to be a problem? It’s almost funny that you used them as a source. It’s really sad that so many could be duped, and you insist on staying duped. The Hoover boys are also funded by defense and banking industries. Boy, you are their favorite kind of chump. Some reminders of what our scholars and/or forefathers had to say:
ALBERT EINSTEIN: “Under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control directly or indirectly, the main source of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed, in most cases for the individual ciztizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.
ALEX DE TOCQUEVILLE: “All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ouught to know that war is the surest and shortest way to accomplish it.”
JAMES MADISON: “If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
FORMER CIA DIRECTOR WILLIAM COLBY: “The Central Intelligence Agency owns any everyone of any signicance in the major media.”
JOHN STOCKWELL, FORMER CIA OFFICIAL AND AUTHOR: “It is the function of the CIA to keep the world unstable, and to propagandize and teach the American people to hate, so we will let the Establishment spend any amount of money on arms.”
ABRAHAM LINCOLN IN A LETTER TO A FRIEND: “I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money power preys upon the nation in times of peace, and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureacracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who quetion its methods, or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army, in front of me, and the financial institution at the rear, the latter is my greatest foe. Corporations have been enthronedm, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign byworking upon the prejudices of the people, until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of the few, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at thes moment, more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions prove groundless.”
And as REPUBLICAN GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER, two time Congressional medal of Honor winner said, WAR IS A RACKET!
Sadaam Hussein and bin Laden were enemies, Sharon.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2003/02/mil-030212-shape01.htm
So, dropping bombs equates to torture now? How do we prosecute wars, Blu?
And Saddam Hussein cheered 9/11, Blu. I know, I know, it was an inside job.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc082108.html
York, NIST has been used by the government to come up with manipulated results. A former NIST member has admitted that. Also, in recent days, a scientific panel encountered NIST, leaving them no choice but to admit that explosives were the only possiblility for the collapse of WTC7. Listen to what hundreds of architects and stuctural engineers have to say at: http://ae911truth.com
UH-OH WRONG LINK ABOVE. This is the correct one.
http://www.ae911truth.org/
http://www.howstuffworks.com/building-implosion.htm
This is how it’s done. It’s not hocus-pocus. It takes weeks to prepare to implode a building with explosives. It does require obvious selected demolition that would have been noticed by thousands for many weeks. But you will say it was a coverup of all this pre-demo work. It was not demolished by explosives.
Peruse around here, York.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=silversein+911+&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#
So, dropping bombs equates to torture now? How do we prosecute wars, Blu?
I did not say that, but, since you said that, I’d admit that bombs falling from overhead would be torturous, although they are different subjects. And, the vast majority of the victims are innocent.
So, dropping bombs equates to torture now? How do we prosecute wars, Blu?
Generally by hauling those who initiate aggressive wars up before the Hague, Sharon.
Your ignorance is astounding, Blu. How does one conduct wars where everything is a war crime? I understand that in Utopia, war is unnecessary. But we don’t live in Utopia. Fortunately for you, there are grownups who understand this.
Well, then, Sharon, I guess what Hitler did was okay. Go read the book online, in which the
General who was in many wars, called War is a Racket. The link is a few posts above my post of the multiple quotations. Just read some of it. If it interests you, read more. This man should know what the scoop is.
Your ignorance is astounding. More astounding, is your willingness to maintain it.
Blubonnet: If you don’t believe me, you’re worse than Hitler!
blubonnet:
Peruse around here, York.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=silversein+911+&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#
So Silverstein saw that WTC 7 was on fire. While it was on fire he rushed a crew in to the building with thermite bombs, and then imploded it for the insurance money. That sounds perfectly reasonable, NOT. That would mean he had a demolition crew on retainer with thermite bombs on the chance that one day this building would be on fire in the vicinty of the worst disaster going on with with a police presence by the thousands in the area, this undercover, clandenstine demo crew did its work.
York, obviously that is impossible, so why did he say “pull it, and why did it go down in a perfect implosion? It is still blamed on “the terrorists”.
If you want to see the WTC 7 collapse, click onto this link, which I’d posted previously, but for simplicity sake, I’ll post it again.
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Thank you, for showing interest, dear York.