The nutroots are out in full force defending Democrats using a child to do a liberal’s work. To listen to them, questioning the sob story of 12-year-old Graeme Frost, who was shilling for the Dems latest project: ballooning the SCHIP program to include upper middle class families.
Why would conservatives be so skeptical of Dems’ newest poster child? Gee, I dunno. Maybe it’s because liberals love using their kids to promote their causes, even if the kid would be against the parent’s political position.
What is bizarre to me about this whole brouhaha is the faux outrage of the left that their tactics are being attacked. Let’s make this clear: it’s not really whether or not Frost’s family could afford insurance. It’s that Democrats can’t make the case for raising the costs to cover families making $83,000 per year. They know that, which is why they bring in Frost to tell why SCHIP helped his family.
For the record, President Bush wanted to extend SCHIP, but didn’t want the $35 billion price tag Democrats have attached to it. Democrats want universal health care, and insuring children is a backdoor approach to it. Besides, who can oppose insuring children?
Amusingly, moonbats are defending the life choices of the Frosts by saying they’re “doing what Republicans espouse.” Well, excuse me, but as Dan Riehl points out, that’s a load of hooey.
Yes, the Frost children are victims, but not of conservatives. They look more like victims of a couple of mostly spoiled brats who became parents and never felt compelled to take responsibility for themselves when it came to the bottom line on that. There are poor people in America who need help, particularly as regards Health care. The point is, the family above shouldn’t be and simply aren’t among them. Call Dad next time you want some bucks FH. And kindly leave the rest of America’s collective wallet the hell alone.
Or, hey, get a second job with benefits. I’ve done that more than once in my life when I needed the cash. And do it before you let Graeme tell the media how much you struggle to take care of him, because there are enough people in America who really do struggle with these issues. And when they take a look at your lot in life they are left far from impressed and unmoved to cough up one thin dime so you can enjoy afternoons playing with your lathe, or whatever the hell else it is you do in your factory.
I don’t see someone who needs my help in F Halsey Frost. I see a simpleton and a loser who had more kids than he could afford and doesn’t appear to have given up very much in life to deal with that situation. Who knows, maybe Dad figured it out, too and cut him off. What the hell, there’s always welfare, right?
The problem with the liberal world view is that none of us should be required to live with the decisions we make. As Dan says, responsible parents figure out how to pay for their own children, and only after they’ve exhausted their own resources do they consider government assistance. Though my husband is uninsurable, my children and I do have insurance and it costs about $300 per month.
What’s terrible is that the Frosts really do symbolize the Democrats’ idea of the poor: people who volunteer to make less money than it takes to support their family, then expect the taxpayers to make up the difference. That’s an insult to the families who really are poor. But I guess a really poor child wouldn’t look as sympathetic to Dems as this family did.
Michelle Malkin has a great post that gives more details about what is wrong with the “they’re attacking children” harangue from the left.
To start with, the Maryland program does not assets-test, meaning that people who own property but don’t necessarily make a great deal are eligible for the taxpayer-supported program. That’s how the Frosts managed not to provide for their children. The plan the Democrats in Congress are proposing is designed to expand what should be a program to help those who cannot afford health insurance to include those who don’t want to afford their own insurance.
And more on Frost.
The Frosts own a home in Baltimore purchased for $55,000 sixteen years ago–and now worth an estimated $300,000. That’s a lot of equity. In addition, the children’s father, Halsey Frost, owns commercial real estate and his own small business, but chose not to buy health insurance for himself and his wife, whom he hired as an employee. She now apparently works freelance at a medical publishing firm, which also reportedly doesn’t offer insurance. Gemma and Graeme both attend expensive private schools; the Frosts have two other school-age children. Reid’s staff says Gemma and Graeme receive tuition breaks. But it’s not clear when those scholarships were instituted and/or whether the other two receive tuition aid as well. Moreover, Frost’s family comes from considerable means. The children’s maternal grandfather was an engineering executive. Their paternal grandparents hail from affluent Bronxville, New York, where the grandfather is a prominent facilities management consultant and chairman of the municipal planning board.
In other words: The public trough is not Halsey Frost’s last and only resort.
Having your children hurt in an accident is a tragedy. Exploiting that tragedy for political gain is despicable.
Cross-posted at Gold-Plated Witch on Wheels.
The Frost kids are uninsurable by normal insurance.
Pre-existing condition as a result of the accident, remember?
Their parents work, pay the bills and still can’t afford the insurance. That says more about the sorry state of health care in this country and the gutter level the people attacking this family are at.
Yes, laugh with Bush about how 3 jobs is only in America.
9/11.
Sharon beat me to the punch, but we had a tyhunderstorm which knocked out the power last night; I blame Al Gore!
Part of what I had written:
The Democratic advocates dragged forth their “human face” of the program, one Graeme Frost, a 12-year-old Maryland boy who was injured in an automobile accident a few years ago. While Mr Frost’s parents made only $45,000 in reportable income, some conservative sites noted that the Frosts apparently had a wider range of assets: businesses and properties owned, and the fact that they send their children to a very expensive private school. The Usual Suspects all chimed in, led by Think Progress, to say, “A ha! It isn’t what you think!” and to claim that the Frosts never made over $50 grand a year.
Of course, as a self-employed businessman, Mr Frost apparently never chose to pay his own health insurance! Our friends on the left never seem to mention that.
But we can always find a hard case in our goal of being sympathetic, can’t we? If it turns out that Mr Frost’s case is genuine, then the liberals have found their poster boy; if it turns out to be bogus, well, there will always be another!
What is really happening here is a slow incrementalism of federalizing health care coverage. Poor kids? Why certainly, they need help! In some states, the Democrats want to include all children into coverage, regardless of the family’s ability to pay or decisions concerning health care. The elderly? They’re all covered under Medicare. The poor? We’ve got Medicaid to help them. And slowly, ever so incrementally, the federal government sweeps responsibility for health care for more and more Americans into itself. If the Democrats and liberals have their way, pretty soon the only people who won’t be covered by the feds will be middle-class and better income people who work for a living.
And, why, if they are the only ones left, surely they, too, can be swept into the arms of Big Nanny for their health care.
This is just another attempt at creeping socialism. Every government program does some good, for someone; the real question is: does the fact that a government program benefits someone, even if that someone is a poor child like Mr Frost, mean that it is a wise idea to have that program? Is it the responsibility of the government to take everybody to raise?
The Frost kids are uninsurable by normal insurance.
Pre-existing condition as a result of the accident, remember?
Whether 2 of the Frosts’ 4 children are uninsurable now is debatable. However, all 4 were insurable before the accident, and the Frosts chose not to insure them. Why? Because there was a government program to do this for them and they would rather spend their money elsewhere.
This is the problem with this poster child. I can find something else to do with my $300 per month for insurance, but instead we take care of our children the way grownups are supposed to. Plus, other commenters at other sites noted that it’s just a lie that the Frosts couldn’t find affordable health insurance.
And even if they couldn’t get insurance–like my husband–then they should be putting money away to pay for their healthcare needs. I’ve seen nothing that indicates the Frosts have large monthly prescription drug bills (my husband’s are about $300-$400 per month), and so putting money away for a rainy day should be part of the plan. But the Frosts didn’t do that because they could get the taxpayer to pick up their tab.
Their parents work, pay the bills and still can’t afford the insurance. That says more about the sorry state of health care in this country and the gutter level the people attacking this family are at.
Their parents could afford health insurance. That’s the kicker. They chose not to. Argue if you wish about pre-existing conditions (I’m all too familiar with them), but these parents chose not to afford insurance before the accident. And the Democrats caused this family to be scrutinized by making them the examples of who needs SCHIP funding. You want to blame someone, blame them.
Yes, laugh with Bush about how 3 jobs is only in America.
Guess what? Life is hard. If you can’t get by with one job, you get a different job, a better job, or more jobs. That’s what grownups do. They don’t expect other taxpayers to pick up the tab for their personal decisions.
9/11.
Yes, it’s despicable when Democrats try to use 9/11 for political gain.
Why didn’t the Frost’s Auto Insurance cover the accident????
The bottom line is the Democrats (Mrs. Bill Clinton) believe that health insurance should be a government sponsored intitlement paid for by the hard working taxpayers. Despite the safety nets already written into law that protects poor children, this expansion will become another social security nightmare.
SCHIP AND 401K EXPANSIONS
by Rovin
Anti-capitalist socialist vs. a free market economy—where ideologys collide
We already have a government sponsored 401k retirement program. It’s called Social Security, and it has not been solvent for years. If the democrats want the people of this nation to mimic the socialist policies of communist Russia a generation ago where dependency on the government failed, why don’t they just come out and say it.
This nation was founded on independence and self-reliance of the individual and the framers saw how important it was to limit government intrusion. Every time we accept a new government “entitlement” we shackle and bind the next generation to a government controlled dependency. This is all about POWER AND CONTROL of our hard earned dollars to re-introduce the welfare state of the Carter administration that thought it was easier to feed the lazy who found it was more convenient to rely on the government than to get off their ass’s and go to work every day.
This is the cruel and harsh reality of the programs that the new Mrs. Bill Clinton intends to craft for the sake of the “needy”. The tax relief programs that Reagan and Bush introduced is what has provided real growth for this nation by putting the money back into the hands of the individual. The democrats believe it’s their money to re-distribute as they see fit.
I read an article in the Baltimore Sun and have a few observations that aren’t in the national spotlight.
- Their house appreciated like my parent’s house appreciated. My parents live within a mile of the Frosts. The house my parents bought in the early 60′s for under $10K sells for $250K+. New houses across the street from my parents are selling for $400K+
- If Mr. Frost is so good with wood, why isn’t he in the Carpenter’s Union making $25+ an hour in a city with a major building boom and the region is also. And the union has a generous benefits package.
- Were the kids buckled in their seats to sustain injuries like they did?
When I heard that the Dems were using this kid without any background info beforehand, I thought this is a bad idea. The Dems played the “For the Children” trump card and it is turning into a fiasco for them.
Never heard of a Mortgage before?
Or did you think home equity is free money?
Self-employed i.e. runs own business…why do Republicans hate self starters?
Okay Yorkshire, now you’re just being a complete A$$hole.
Corrected.
Wrong. This is about how broken our for profit healthcare system has become because health insurers have every interest in keeping the sick out of coverage and making sure that those in coverage have to fight for every scrap of medical care because when it comes to dollars vs health, the profit margins win every time.
We already had the dog eat dog ‘non-interventionist’ government and accompanying social and economic system.
It got us the Great Depression.
1. Assets
=Income. Or are you seriously suggesting they sell everything for an expense that will REMAIN year after year?2. Scholarships, do look it up please.
Pay the bills or health insurance?
Food on the table or health insurance?
Pay the mortgage or health insurance?
Gee, I wonder?
Translation: Sure, Republicans got caught making sh!t up about the Frosts but there’s always next time!
Heavens to Betsys, we can’t have children be taken care of no matter how good or bad a parent they might have! Why, the very idea is simply shocking! If children aren’t smart enough to be born to families that can afford the medical premiums and who will deliberatly injure themselves to get covered by the state and fed then they shouldn’t be born at-wait, isn’t that the argument for abortion??? I’m so confused!
I ask that question every day about the Bush’s Abstinence Program, his Religious Faith Program and his Tax Cuts.
Wrong. Disabled and Brain Injury, no private insurance in their right mind will touch them.
Food, bills, basic school supplies…yeah, real obvious choice to make. Or can we eat health insurance now? The whole point is they couldn’t afford to pay for health insurance without SCHIP on top of what they already need to worry about.
And explain to me again how this justifies stalking and harassing them?
And you’re making the BIG assumption that the Frosts could get $300 a month premiums in the first place. Details on what your $300 buys you, deductables, lifetime coverage, exemptions, procedures covered, drug coverage…and then give a source on this ‘lie about not being able to find affordable insurance’ because you’re batting 0.000 so far.
Their children are disabled, one with a severe brain injury. The medical bills were and almost certainly still are a lot higher then $300-$400 per month. As for putting aside money, I’d like to see anyone save up the kind of money needed to deal with hospital bills and specialists on $45,000 a year with 4 kids to raise.
$50,000 in savings would be CHUMP CHANGE to the costs involved in ongoing treatment.
Shorter Sharon: It’s their fault, they were asking for it wearing those short skirts. Why else would they do so unless they were looking for trouble?
So that’s it then? Life sucks for you, so it has to suck for everyone else too? Instead of support nets for when things go wrong, it’s every man and woman for themself? This is your idea of being a grownup, attacking crippled 12 year olds and their families for the crime of taking help when it was available?
Corrected for accuracy.
I know Republicans are heartless idiots, but I can never get over how people like Sharon gleefully slit their own economic throats to spite someone else’s face.
LOL! Dollar for dollar, SS is more efficient then private plans. If only we could get a healthcare system just like it, we’d all be better off.
Thanks Capitan, I thought I was verbose!
In the future Capitan, us “cripples” prefer to be called disabled. If I want to call myself a crippled tard, then I reserve the right. You, when you want to show your PITY should use disabled and mentally challenged.
Capitan said…
Why not, some of us have had to face that. There are programs out there; and the family does not have to spend to zero.
Capitan stated…
Ah, maybe that is the problem; ya think? Instead of having the government do something it does oh so bad, how about we look at that.
The Capitan postulated in a socialistic manner…
There is so much wrong with this statement. The short response here is that it is simply silly. Health care is a private-government hybrid bastard. It does not function properly at all. Your foolish ideas would only make things worse on the poor pitiful cripple folk you want to help. More government is not good, more insurance accountability is.
The Capitan in a less than lucid, for real, moment mused…
Oh course children should be helped. I am sorry that is not obvious to you. I believe changes need to be made. I would point out that it is not possible to protect people from themselves. We are all still suffering from the self indulgent things people with your mind set did to help us recover from the Great Depression, after all.
Capitan, I differ from most on here regarding how to approach health care. I deal with the challenges of our current system on a daily basis. I suffer at time from the good intentions of people like you. You can take your government run and mandated health care system and shove them.
PG’s mom used to say…
I need to point out, as I have said before, I was her favorite “baby†boy, and my brother was older after all. Keep your good intentions Capitan. Your ideas are simpilistic.
I will say this: There is absolutely nothing unique in your talking points. Even your insults are stale. You are like Phooey-Lite!
Capitan, why the personal attack on Sharon? Are you so threatened by the ideas of others that you need to insult them? Maybe there is history here, I don’t know, but you are not very good at this. Better men and women than you and all. Cheers!
Their house appreciated like my parent’s house appreciated.
Never heard of a Mortgage before?
Or did you think home equity is free money?
And you looked in the mirror and called me a Complete A$$hole.
If Mr. Frost is so good with wood, why isn’t he in the Carpenter’s Union making $25+ an hour in a city with a major building boom and the region is also.
Self-employed i.e. runs own business…why do Republicans hate self starters?
I’ll type slowly for you. Everybody loves a self starter. But if the bills outdo the income, you try to make more. Wait, that’s too advanced for a genius like you.
BTW, When you want to insult people again for expressing an opinion, go take a dump, you’ll get more out of it using your favorite orifice.
Bruce Kesler of The Democracy Project tells us how his family is eligible for SCHIP. Apparently, in all but three states (Maryland, the home of the Frosts not being one of those three), there is absolutely no asset test required to be eligible for SCHIP.
Captain Obvious wrote:
I assume he meant to find the ASCII code for the not equal to sign, but couldn’t.
But yes, I am suggesting that the family’s assets ought to be subject to drawdown to pay the family’s bills. Why should other people’s income be taxed away to preserve the Frosts’ standard of living?
I’m certain that you believe you are being good and compassionate here, but one thing that so many people simply fail to understand: every government program, regardless of how much good you believe it does, requires the taking of people’s money. Why should other people have to sacrifice because the Frosts chose not to purchase health insurance when they could?
To save on purchasing health insurance, the Frosts are trying to take food off of someone else’s table, clothes off of someone else’s back. When the Captain wrote:
did it occur to him that his notions of government good meant the choices for some people of:
Pay the bills or taxes?
Food on the table or taxes?
Pay the mortgage or taxes?
But I don’t wonder. Unlike a decision not to buy health insurance, a decision not to pay taxes has the rather unpleasant consequence of being thrown in jail.
Did the Frosts have cable television? Did they have cell phones? What luxuries did they have, made possible by declining to buy health insurance — and why should I have to work a little harder, to try and make a bit more money, to subsidize the Frosts’ irresponsibility?
Their house appreciated like my parent’s house appreciated.
Never heard of a Mortgage before?
Or did you think home equity is free money?
Dear Captain AH,
Did you even bother to think through this statement of mine. I was actually giving support to the Frosts, or your reading and thinking skills are to attack only.
The Frosts bought a house in an area of Baltimore that went to hyper-inflated prices in ten years. They have a paper asset, not necessary a real one. It’s like my parents, they have a paper asset of their house. It hasn’t made them richer, in fact, it makes them poorer paying more taxes in Harm City.
However, assets aside, the Frosts made choices. Their choices was to let me pay for their insurance. So, at this point, I pay my own health insurance (not gov’t furnished) and the Frosts. The question begs, when does this stop? But you’re more interested in denigration than discussion.
First, to our latest troll:
If you buy a house for $55,000 and it is worth $300,000, you can sell it, pay off the mortgage and still have more than $200,000 left to put into some sort of stock fund to preserve your money. There’s no reason why you should keep your well-appreciated house and expect other taxpayers–many who are worse off than you–to pay for your health insurance.
Second, the Frosts could have bought health insurance before the accident. And, yes, they could have bought insurance for their 4 children (not including the adults, of course, who could sacrifice for their offspring) for less than $500 per month. Even on $45,000 per year, the Frosts wouldn’t have needed to be destitute to get health insurance for their children. They just needed to be responsible.
Third, if you don’t make enough money to provide for your family, you do what you have to do to provide for them. You don’t whine that you don’t want a better paying job because it’s just not as fulfilling for you. That’s what adults do. And life doesn’t suck when you are taking care of your responsibilities. It’s actually quite rewarding.
Finally, finding the Frosts’ house–which had been the subject of wild speculation–is called investigating (as in journalism), not stalking. We might more accurately characterize a certain ex-President’s prurient and unwanted interest in various females as stalking.
If you buy a house for $55,000 and it is worth $300,000, you can sell it
Sharon, how much can you sell a house nominally valued at $260,000 for in today’s market? How much will you have left after paying off the mortgage? How much will it cost to buy something else capable of housing a family of six? And how much will you pay in commissions and other expenses while doing so?
And how much health care will that remainder purchase?
I live in New Zealand, which is a middle of the road, second-tier economy. We’re not doing that great, although we’re not too bad. But I will never have to face this dilemma – this mediocre little economy chose to pay for a public health system that the wealthiest country in the world “can’t afford”.
As I result, I am more secure than many, perhaps most Americans in this respect, and therefore freer to live my life without distorting it to deal with the threat of catastrophe.
Sucks to be you.
Pho,
If your house is valued at nearly $300k, after paying off the mortgage and other related expenses, you will have roughly $200k left. That’s a lot of money to buy health insurance with.
Yes, your second-tier country can afford to do what it does for your health insurance. That’s because the U.S. pays for the research for treatments and medications that you and every other industrialized country on earth enjoy. You also don’t allow just anyone into your country(nice being an island), nor do you protect the rest of the world with your military. It’s so nice to lecture the adults when you don’t have to take care of yourself.
And no, it doesn’t suck to be me at all. It’s rather wonderful.
BTW, for whoever it was who was arguing about $300 per month insurance: we deliberately chose a high deductible to keep costs down. Or you can pay more and get lower deductibles. That’s what choice is about.
If your house is valued at nearly $300k, after paying off the mortgage and other related expenses, you will have roughly $200k left.
You do realise the difference between a nominal valuation and what it can sell for, don’t you? Perhaps not…
Yes, your second-tier country can afford to do what it does for your health insurance. That’s because the U.S. pays for the research for treatments and medications that you and every other industrialized country on earth enjoy.
Nice factoid – but not quite the case. Unless you’re redefining international companies as “the U.S.”, or ignoring research spending elsewhere.
Ah, here we go – an illustration of medical care in the US
So this is the compassionate conservatism of pgwarner. Lovely, there but for one slip go you.
The government tends to do a better job when it comes to things where profit doesn’t come first. Social Security, the Environment, Collecting Taxes and Yes, even Health Care. Or would you like to explain why with the greatest technology in the world, our healthcare system ranks *worse* then other advanced countries which have government involved?
The answer is right in front of you. Private Health Insurance operates for a profit. Providing care reduces profit. Ergo, Insurers will do everything in their power to pay as little as possible in service even if it means you die as a result. The *Market* will not solve this because the priority is profit, not care.
How you can write that and not be immediately struck down by lightning is beyond me. We *had* a rising level of wealth and prosperity across the board until some idiot R decided that the answer to good government was tax cuts, corruption and spending on two losing wars.
You are an A$$hole. Trying to imply the Frosts are bad parents who caused their children’s injuries without a shred of evidence solely because you’re on the losing side of an argument shows you to be well suited to Coulter and Malkin.
Because rather then get into a program they are eligible for, they should lose their home instead…lovely Dana Pico!
Please look up social safety net next time.
Oh please, try another one besides that old boondoogle, “But it spends other people’s money!”
There are a lot of things this government spends on that are a complete waste of resources (Office of Faith and Abstinence only come to mind).
SCHIP is not one of them. Cheaper to do it at that level then force the entire family into bankruptcy and have all six of them on public assistance for everything.
The Social Net is there for all of us should the worst happen and we need it. For the Frosts, the worst DID happen, their children were hurt badly and they needed help from a program designed for people like them.
The Frosts pay taxes too, or did you not realize that?
So instead of doing a discreet check using something called basic reporting, you agree with stalking, posting private address and phone information and harassment of a family that did nothing wrong?
You are at best only one health emergency away of winding up in exactly their situation. Make too much to get Medicaid, but too little to afford the bills you will find your health insurance (provided you have any) will not pay.
Don’t knock the net when you can fall in it.
And there’s your problem. You seem to think it’s ‘your’ money. The Frosts pay their taxes too, so cry us a river about the big mean government spending on domestic healthcare when it provides a long term benefit to all Americans.
Meanwhile, pretend that the real drain on the tax dollars in Iraq and the Pentagon doesn’t exist. If you actually cared about wasted tax dollars you’d do better to worry about that since every month spent there equals five YEARS of SCHIP funding.
Hahahahaha!! Good joke!!
Wait, you were serious?
So they should sell their home to pay for their health insurance and live where? In public assisted housing?
Do you have any idea how long it can take to sell a home, the costs involved?
I know you’re out of touch with real people, but this is just plain silly now.
And that meant going without health insurance to pay the bills. And lo, a program was created to help people like this called SCHIP.
What were you saying again?
Driving past and eyeballing a person’s home and giving an opinion on how much its worth is not investigation. Posting their personal information for Rightwing nutcases is not journalism. Not bothering to do even basic fact checking and instead bugging the neighbors (and then disagreeing with what they say) is really dipping into the gutter.
Only the Right can defend this kind of behavior. No rational human being with any sense of morality could.
Only if you pretend they don’t need a place to live, or that what a house is appraised at is not what it can actually sell for, or that $200k actually isn’t that much when continuing care for two children with disabilities and brain damage easily can reach the multimillions.
In Sharon’s Crazyworld, it makes sense. In reality where everyone else lives, we think you’re nuts.
TH wrote:
There should be no program for which the Frosts are eligible to have other people pay for their neglect.
The Frosts chose an irresponsible course of action in life, thinking that they could get away without purchasing health insurance; you would have those of us who have been responsible in life pay for those who were not.
TH wrote:
Our friends across the pond have had their National Health Service for generations now — and behold! they are turning to private companies, including U.S. health insurers in the pool of companies that can help administer National Health Service coverage.
The nationalized health care you think is the panacea has led to poor care in the UK, has led to waiting times exceeding half a year in some provinces of Canada and what amounts to rationing of health care.
Need an MRI in Canada? The wait can be weeks or months, while, in the United States, the for-profit health care system has so many MRI machines and radiologists that some firms are actually advertising for clients to come in and get “baseline” MRIs done; I’ve heard the radio ads myself, in the Philadelphia ‘burbs.
TH has made much of the apparent sale value of the Frosts home, noting that if they were forced to sell it, they’d still have to live elsewhere.
The home is valued somewhere around $300,000; it’s true that the exact value cannot be determined until there’s an actual sale.
But many of us, including your humble host, live in houses that are nowhere close to $300,000 in market value; we paid $87,500 for our house in mid 2002.
Now, why should I be taxed more to support the Frosts being able to keep a house valued at near a third of a million dollars?
The value of our home is determined, in large part, by the community in which we live — and Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania, once home to more millionaires than New York City (during the anthracite coal boom of the nineteenth century) is now pretty much of a poor town. I’m pretty fortunate to have one of the better-paying jobs around, but there are a whole lot of people around here who work at WalMart or grocery stores or small retail tourist-trap shops. Why should people who make less than the Frosts have their money taxed away to support the Frosts in a much better lifestyle?
That’s the problem with the liberal do-gooders: all they see is what they think is doing good, without ever realizing that someone has to pay for their oh-so-worthwhile projects. Naturally, they think that the answer is to soak the wealthy, but you can’t get away from the fact that the poor in this copuntry pay taxes as well.
TruthHurts Says:
October 11th, 2007 at 1:59 am
And you looked in the mirror and called me a Complete A$$hole.
You are an A$$hole. Trying to imply the Frosts are bad parents who caused their children’s injuries without a shred of evidence solely because you’re on the losing side of an argument shows you to be well suited to Coulter and Malkin.
Another Lib with a reading comprehension problem. I’ll go slowly for you too. Reread what I wrote. I (as in myself) read(the act of seeing what is written in a story) and had a QUESTION (the things you do to inquire, not make an accusation) about whether the kids had seatbelts. If you bothered to read, not denigrate, the accident happened. It gave no details. That’s why we have conservatives to think for you.
You do realise the difference between a nominal valuation and what it can sell for, don’t you? Perhaps not
I’ve bought and sold real estate, Pho. And yes, I know the difference. The idea that this family couldn’t get MORE money for their property is ridiculous and pure speculation. The bottom line: they didn’t even try to pay for themselves.
Nice factoid – but not quite the case. Unless you’re redefining international companies as “the U.S.â€, or ignoring research spending elsewhere.
Actually, it’s more accurate than the idea that somehow socialized medicine actually pays for the innovations in the industry.
Ah, an illustration of socialized medicine. I can match you link for link, Pho.
The government tends to do a better job when it comes to things where profit doesn’t come first. Social Security, the Environment, Collecting Taxes and Yes, even Health Care. Or would you like to explain why with the greatest technology in the world, our healthcare system ranks *worse* then other advanced countries which have government involved?
You must not have ever spent any time in a government-run health care facility if you think this. Go pick up a torts book and it is filled with med-mal cases stemming from incompetent military doctors. And the wait! Ah, yes. The private health care system is worse except for the alternatives.
The answer is right in front of you. Private Health Insurance operates for a profit. Providing care reduces profit. Ergo, Insurers will do everything in their power to pay as little as possible in service even if it means you die as a result. The *Market* will not solve this because the priority is profit, not care.
This is an oversimplification. The fact is, insurance encourages certain sorts of care (prenatal, for example) which is relatively inexpensive and produces good results. But you seriously can’t argue that government doesn’t ration health care when it is in charge. Why, in England,
they are trying to force women to use natural childbirth to reduce expenses. Dunno how many children you’ve birthed, but that would suck.
Because rather then get into a program they are eligible for, they should lose their home instead.
Because mooching off the taxpayers when you can pay for yourself is unethical.
The Social Net is there for all of us should the worst happen and we need it. For the Frosts, the worst DID happen, their children were hurt badly and they needed help from a program designed for people like them.
The social net should be for the truly poor and those unable to care for themselves, not people who choose not to care for themselves.
The Frosts pay taxes too, or did you not realize that?
Actually, with their income and number of dependents, they probably DON’T pay taxes.
So instead of doing a discreet check using something called basic reporting, you agree with stalking, posting private address and phone information and harassment of a family that did nothing wrong?
No one was stalked. Phone numbers and addresses were public information. And Democrats used this family for political advantage. Scrutinizing the story is called reporting. Next.
And there’s your problem. You seem to think it’s ‘your’ money. The Frosts pay their taxes too, so cry us a river about the big mean government spending on domestic healthcare when it provides a long term benefit to all Americans.
As I said, with their income level and dependents, it’s quite likely the Frosts don’t pay any taxes. And yes, I think the money my husband and I earn is “my” money. Funny about that, isn’t it?
So they should sell their home to pay for their health insurance and live where? In public assisted housing?
Do you have any idea how long it can take to sell a home, the costs involved?
I know you’re out of touch with real people, but this is just plain silly now.
No, they could use a home equity loan or sell their home and find something less expensive, since they seem to be asset-rich and cash poor. They used the system. They don’t pay for themselves, even though both parents COULD do more. Instead, they CHOSE not to get their own insurance but rely on a program designed for people who COULDN’T AFFORd insurance. BTW, I sold my home within a week, so, yes, i know about selling a home. And before you argue otherwise, it wasn’t in the most desireable neighborhood, nor was it a huge place.
And that meant going without health insurance to pay the bills. And lo, a program was created to help people like this called SCHIP.
No, it means going without some other luxury (cable, computer, etc.) to get health insurance for your kids. Or get another or better job. One with benefits or that pays enough to buy your own insurance.
Driving past and eyeballing a person’s home and giving an opinion on how much its worth is not investigation. Posting their personal information for Rightwing nutcases is not journalism. Not bothering to do even basic fact checking and instead bugging the neighbors (and then disagreeing with what they say) is really dipping into the gutter.
It’s no different from what journalists do every day. Ever hear of interviews? That’s what you’re calling “bugging.” The problem is, you think the Frosts story should go unquestioned, yet you would be angry if a Republican had made claims without getting the 3d degree.
Only if you pretend they don’t need a place to live, or that what a house is appraised at is not what it can actually sell for, or that $200k actually isn’t that much when continuing care for two children with disabilities and brain damage easily can reach the multimillions.
In Sharon’s Crazyworld, it makes sense. In reality where everyone else lives, we think you’re nuts.
The Frosts had options other than mooching off the taxpayers. In the real world (the one I inhabit and you obviously don’t), adults make the sacrifices for their children. That includes buying health insurance because–gasp!–bad things happen even to children.
Another pointless discussion seems to be well under way. I will leave it to you guys to teach these pigs to sing.
There is nothing to be accomplished when one side believes that the other is evil; even if that other side does not believe in evil.
TH/Capitan is Jeromy Brown, or it might as well be. As Phooey likes to say, that shark has jumped. NOTHING is more juvenile than calling people names. I myself am guiltless in this area, of course, well except for Phooey. I have been given a dispensation regarding him.
Capitan TH, maybe it has escaped you, but we already have universal health care in this country. We have had it for a while. Whether you are rich or poor, legal or illegal you get treatment. The Frosts are an imperfect example for both sides when those sides desire to emphasize the minutiae of their situation and try to apply it on a national level. What is germane about the Frosts is they chose not to have insurance.
Let’s try this, if you “believe†that the government can do a better job than the market regarding health care management, fine, you are entitled. This act of faith on your part flies in the face of common sense. Any rational person who goes to a social service office anywhere in the country, or calls one, would conclude otherwise. Not only does the government not do it well, it provides its unsatisfactory care at too high a price. It took the government 12weeks, cost $450.00 dollars, and involved a PT and a Doctor to provide me with a $60.00 pair of wheelchair tires that I need three times a year due to routine wear.
Understand THIS: A private insurance company SHOULD payout ONLY what it is CONTRACTUALY obligated to. It is the 21st century; socialism in the US is dead. Because you have now have a forum to express your netroot ideas does not mean people who do not agree with you either listen, or are much less swayed. You do get positive feed back, but it is from each other.
If you desire to respond, fine. If you do it with silly middle school insults, save it Jeromy/whoever. There is no point. Grow up.
My gift for the Phoenician in a time of Romans!
With love from me to you.
The nationalized health care you think is the panacea has led to poor care in the UK, has led to waiting times exceeding half a year in some provinces of Canada and what amounts to rationing of health care.
Uh-huh.
That’s the problem with the liberal do-gooders: all they see is what they think is doing good, without ever realizing that someone has to pay for their oh-so-worthwhile projects. Naturally, they think that the answer is to soak the wealthy, but you can’t get away from the fact that the poor in this copuntry pay taxes as well.
Uh-huh
The Merovingian in a time of Carolinians pointed to a single testimony, here. It has been said, more than once, that the plural of anecdote is not data.
This is data: Nationalized health care systems around the world have the same problems in dealing with limited means. The British National Health Service ordered hospitals in the South East to delay routine patient appointments for eight weeks, due to budgetary problems:
Hospitals told to delay treatment
Hospitals in the South East are being told to delay routine patient appointments for eight weeks, otherwise they will not be paid for them.
The minimum period is being enforced by primary care trusts because a drive to meet government waiting time targets was costing too much money.
Hospital consultants and GPs in Kent and West Sussex said being told not to see patients was “unethical”.
NHS South East Coast said it had to “live within its means”.
The strategic health authority (SHA) – which covers all hospital and primary care trusts in Kent, Surrey and Sussex – said its forecast deficit for the current financial year was £104m.
A letter sent to all the trust chief executives said routine patients should not be seen “too promptly”.
It concluded that if hospitals failed to reduce the level of routine referrals under eight weeks, the SHA would “support non-payment [by the relevant PCT]“
Of course, eight weeks in the United Kingdom might not seem all that bad to our neighbors in the north:
The Fraser Institute’s fourteenth annual waiting list survey found that Canada-wide waiting times for surgical and other therapeutic treatments changed very little in 2004. Total waiting time between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, rose from 17.7 weeks in 2003 to 17.9 weeks in 2004. This small nationwide deterioration in access reflects waiting-time increases in 4 provinces, while concealing decreases in waiting time in Alberta, Manitoba Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland.
Among the provinces, Manitoba achieved the shortest total wait in 2004, 14.8 weeks, with Ontario (15.5 weeks) losing the “best access†province status that it had held since 2000, and Alberta (17.8 weeks) next shortest. Saskatchewan exhibited the longest total wait, 33.3 weeks; the next longest waits were found in Prince Edward Island (27.4 weeks) and New Brunswick (20.9 weeks).
Amazing! In the great single-payer scheme in Canada, waiting lists were more than half a year in Saskatchewan and Prince Edward Island. Even the province with the shortest wait, Manitoba, had a waiting period of more than a quarter of a year.
It’s really very simple: governments have limited means, and they have to at least try to live within those means. That’s kind of laughable in the United States, I suppose, but even in the deficits-are-no-problem United States, government spending comes under real budgetary restrictions: we actually do try to cut costs where we can, and the medical care providing services are no exception.
The University of Washington noted that many state dentists will not accept Medicaid patients, because payments are too low. The Missouri Catholic Conference noted:
Doctors have claimed that Medicaid reimbursements are too low and that is why many doctors and dentists won’t accept Medicaid patients.
As much as Medicare and Medicaid cost in the United States, the payments are still below market, and the number of physicians and dentists who will provide service for their fees is restricted.
And here the Saxon in a time of Normans tells us that health care costs are both higher and rising faster in the US than in other industrialized countries. That much is true — but it misses the point, because it never tells you why American health care costs so much: the lawyers.
In Pennsylvania, malpractice insurance premiums for obstetricians is over $100,000 a year. If an OB delivers 200 babies a year, the cost of delivery for each one is increased by over $500, solely to cover the malpractice insurance premium. Not one bit of extra care is provided by that $500; it’s just to a fund to pay off those seeking jackpot justice when a baby doesn’t turn out perfect.
Of course, other costs related to care are increased, as physicians perform redundant and frequently unnecessary additional services, not to improve care, but to lessen their exposure to malpractice suits.
The family in question seems to want to live a rather ‘quaint’ existence and have others pick up the tab.
Some of us are fortunate in having jobs that are enjoyable and somewhat rewarding. We make trade-offs. Some self-employed persons are in a ‘hobby business’ with only nominal revenue.
One makes choices in life and should pay the consequences for folly. Why should I subsidize the pleasures (or indolence) of another?
This is not a call to abolish true safety nets, just the hammocks that some find so comfortable (at the expense of others).
“It got us the Great Depression”
Just what ‘got us the Depression’?
Just what economic policies got us into the mess?
Without going partisan, certain blame can be attributed to some policies of the Hoover Administration: Increased protectionism and higher tax rates. The last Presidential candidate to play those cards was John Kerry. Was Kerry a Hoover Democrat?
And what magic of the New Deal ended the Depression? What the loading up of the Department of Agriculture with young and radical New York lawyers a recipe for success? Unemployment got worse until 1937. Tank cars of alphabet soup snake oil obviously did not work.
And here the Saxon in a time of Normans tells us that health care costs are both higher and rising faster in the US than in other industrialized countries. That much is true — but it misses the point, because it never tells you why American health care costs so much: the lawyers.
“The forest of Skund was indeed enchanted, which was nothing unusual on the Disc, and was also the only forest in the whole universe to be called — in the local language — Your Finger You Fool, which was the literal meaning of the word Skund.
The reason for this is regrettably all too common. When the first explorers from the warm lands around the Circle Sea travelled into the chilly hinterland they filled in the blank spaces on their maps by grabbing the nearest native, pointing at some distant landmark, speaking very clearly in a loud voice, and writing down whatever the bemused man told them. Thus were immortalised in generations of atlases such geographical oddities as Just A Mountain, I Don’t Know, What? and, of course, Your Finger You Fool.”
- Terry Pratchett.
I nominate Dana for the Your Finger You Fool award of the week.
The Merovingian in a time of Carolinians pointed to a single testimony, here. It has been said, more than once, that the plural of anecdote is not data.
Uh-huh.
“Access: Not surprising—given the absence of universal coverage—people in the U.S. go without needed health care because of cost more often than people do in the other countries. Americans were the most likely to say they had access problems related to cost, but if insured, patients in the U.S. have rapid access to specialized health care services. In other countries, like the U.K and Canada, patients have little to no financial burden, but experience long wait times for such specialized services. The U.S. and Canada rank lowest on the prompt accessibility of appointments with physicians, with patients more likely to report waiting six or more days for an appointment when needing care. Germany scores well on patients’ perceptions of access to care on nights and weekends and on the ability of primary care practices to make arrangements for patients to receive care when the office is closed. Overall, Germany ranks first on access.”
And this:
The U.S. ranked last among these six nations on four measures of access and continuity of care. Specifically:
* U.S. patients were less likely than patients in the other five countries to have a regular doctor (84% v. 92%–97%). Among those with a regular doctor, U.S. patients were less likely to have continuity with the same doctor for five years or more (50% v. 61%–78%).
* U.S. patients were more likely than patients in the other five countries to report not filling a prescription, not visiting a doctor when sick, and/or not getting a test or follow-up care recommended by a doctor because of cost in the past two years (51% v. 13%–38%).
* U.S. patients were more likely than patients in four other countries (except Australia) to report that it was very difficult to get care on nights, weekends, or holidays without going to the emergency department (39% v. 11%–29%) (Schoen et al. 2005)
U.S. patients reported relatively longer waiting times for doctor appointments when they were sick, but relatively shorter waiting times to be seen at the ER, see a specialist, and have elective surgery. Specifically:
* The percentage of U.S. patients who waited six days or more for a doctor appointment when sick was not significantly different from the rate in Canada (23% v. 36%), the worst-performing country.
* Only 47 percent of U.S. patients were able to see a doctor on the same or next day when sick, versus 61 percent to 81 percent of patients in the four better-performing nations.
* U.S. patients were less likely than patients in Canada (12% v. 24%) but more likely than patients in Germany (4%) to wait four hours or more to be seen in the emergency department.
* U.S. patients were less likely than patients in four countries (except Germany) to wait four weeks or longer to see a specialist (23% v. 40%–60%) or to wait four months or longer for elective surgery (8% v. 19%–41%) (Schoen et al. 2005).
[...] Tuesday, October 9 Michelle Malkin Michelle MalkinDemocrat poster-child abuse, the nutroots’ pushback, and the continued campaign to silence the Right Read this post »… READ MORE »RelatedAs ThreadCommunity Who’s Blogging about this Article elap(’1191982019′); Dan | Riehl World View NY Times ‘Frosty’ On Conservative Blogs Update: Michelle Malkin, quoted in the piece, responds here. 
 
 The New York Times has decided to enter the Frost S-chip fiasco. I don’t believe I have seen one conservative blogger attack 12 yr-old Graeme, as the NY Times asserts. elap(’1191995383′); Thers | Whiskey Fire Sink to the DepthsI was more than ready to forget about the nonsense over the latest jihad launched by the Citizen Stalkerists of the Right Slimeosphere. But then Rox tipped me off to this bit of joy from Dan Riehl, who is not merely swine, but also a total asshole … But as always the best fun with Malkin is at her site, where she is venomous not least to the unnamed McConnell staffer… elap(’1191987994′); Ezra Klein | Ezra Klein Let’s Debate “It’s militant leftist bloggers,” writes Malkin, “who wouldn’t know a good-faith argument if it bit them in the lip.” Let’s have a good faith argument. elap(’1191994740′); shamanic | NewsHog Good faith arguments by shamanicToday Michelle Malkin spills billions and billions of electrons on Graeme Frost and SCHIP.Basically, she doesn’t approve of the choices that this family has made. Doesn’t approve of their jobs. Doesn’t approve of their home … Go and read her piece. elap(’1192015662′); AJStrata | The Strata-Sphere Conservatives Implode On Their S-CHIP SmearSomething is in the water on the right side of the political spectrum. We have seen emotion driven attacks on a family that is in the perfect situation to be an example the irony of their blunder just escapes them … Now some are crying out they are being censored when, in fact, they are simply being challenged in the forum of public debate – and losing miserably. elap(’1192003114′); hoystory | Hoystory The wealthy poor Pt. 2The political brouhaha that has come up as a result of the Democrats S-CHIP public relations stunt using Graeme Frost of Baltimore, Md., reached the pages of The New York Times … Michelle Malkin, who is quoted in the article, responds here.Who’s Blogging about this Topicelap(’1192016580′); Atrios | Eschaton An Enormous, Mendacious, Disembodied Anus Assholes.elap(’1191988499′); Sharon | Common Sense Political Thought What Is Wrong with Them? The nutroots are out in full force defending Democrats using a child to do a liberal’s work.elap(’1191985260′); Michelle Malkin | TownHall Michelle Malkin: The Democrats’ Unhealthy Poster Child Abuse A few weeks ago, Democrat Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid lured two young children to the public spotlight to help him pass a massive expansion of government health insurance. Gemma and Graeme Frost, 9 and 12 years…elap(’1191951069′); Ryan Hagen | FREAKONOMICS On Stalin, Child Abuse, and Crime Freakonomics makes the case that good parenting doesn’t necessarily produce good children. But what’s the effect of bad parenting — especially child abuse?elap(’1191949319′); | AllAfrica News: Health and Medicine Kenya: Religious Groups Join UN Campaign to Reduce Child Deaths NAIROBI, October 9, 2007 CISA) -Catholic and other religious groups in Kenya have joined hands a campaign for child survival launched last week by United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF).elap(’1191934473′); John Hawkins | Right Wing News Conservative Grapevine Promo Make sure to check out Conservative Grapevine today…elap(’1191920400′); Josephine Hearn | POLITICO The Crypt SCHIP foes tear down poster child Blog: Everyone is a target in this partisan age even the kids (or at least their parents).elap(’1191917640′); Fido the Yak | Fido the Yak A Thoughtful Silence As I’ve been reading The Other Side of Language I’ve been thinking that I should cultivate a habit of silence. I admire bloggers who maintain silences. Not the long silence of the abandoned blog, but the regular thoughtful silence between posts.elap(’1191897699′); Slublog | Ace of Spades HQ Poster Child Abuse In their attempts to beat up the president for vetoing the expansion of children’s health care, the Democrats got a seven-year-old to give their radio address. The child was meant to illustrate what the president vetoed – health coverage for…elap(’1191891941′); Glenn Reynolds | Instapundit.com Poster-Child Abuse “The newspapers don’t want to do their jobs. The vacuum is being filled. If you don’t want questions, don’t foist these children onto the public stage.” More here: “So executive vice-presidents’ families are now the new new poor?…RELATED »elap(’1191885705′); David Hardy | Of Arms and the Law The sound of silence… A gunman goes on rampage, kills six. We hear from the Brady Campaign, which might be expect to cite the case, or at least post a press release expressing their condolences… the sound of silence.elap(’1191871080′); HeavyHanded | Heavy-Handed Politics Hillary’s poisoned poster child Jewish World Review Florida is home to an ill-fated child whose life was ruined upon becoming a political pawn. No, this is not another lamentation about Elian Gonzalez. This is the tragic tale of Jennifer Bush. Do you remember Jennifer?elap(’1191858940′); ppeggy | nowpublic.com Interpol: help us find child abuse suspect read more…elap(’1191856961′); | AfterDowningStreet Fort Hunt’s Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII Interrogators Fought ‘Battle of Wits’ By Petula Dvorak, Washington Post For six decades, they held their silence.elap(’1191850535′); Michelle Malkin | Michelle Malkin Graeme Frost and the perils of Democrat poster child abuse Read this post »…RELATED »elap(’1191849649′); | AllAfrica News: West Africa Business Ghana: New Campaign to Avert Maternal and Child Deaths Women leaders of the United Nations welcomed the launch of a global campaign to eliminate maternal and child deaths around the world. Related ArticlesSCHIP Foes Tear Down Poster Child, by Josephine Hearn – CBS News CBS NewsThe Democrats’ Unhealthy Poster Child Abuse RealClearPolitics‘Britain’s Leonardo’ rescued on safety net The TimesInterpol: help us find child abuse suspect The TimesMore by this AuthorThe left fakes the hate at GWU elap(’1191981523′);RELATED »Missing Atlantic City mayor found elap(’1191964872′);Another GOP presidential debate. Fred debuts. Wake me up when it’s over. elap(’1191957033′);Everybody gets a 401K plan! elap(’1191946407′);Related TagsHealth Top BlogRunner StoriesAbout Blogrunner blogrunner.com … e: feedback(AT)blogrunner.com … Wed Oct 10 10:02:23 2007 ET … Copyright (c) 2006-2007 The New York Times [...]
When I had my bike accident several months ago, not only was I seen in the emergency room within minutes of arrival (barely enough time to have a cigarette with my good arm outside), but I was referred to a specialist, whom I saw the very next morning. He already had the results of the previous day’s CAT Scan loaded on his computer screen and was able to confirm (much to my relief) that the shoulder was just fine, no disclocation or other form of serious injury.
Yes, I have a 1,000 dollar bill from that visit, but it’s worth it to pay for speedy and professional care, unlike the East German style of medicine practiced in Canada or the UK.
[...] Common Sense Political Thought » Archives » What Is Wrong with Them? [...]
[...] though he linked Sharon’s article (with which he is greatly displeased, only on her site, and not the one she posted here. [...]
Since I’ve added a (very long) article on the same subject, one which references some of the comments here, I’m going to close comments on this thread, and ask that you add any comments, including those specific to this article, on that one, simply for housekeeping purposes; having comments scattered hither, thither and yon gets confusing.
[...] Graeme Frost? He was the 12-year-old that Democrats used to try to change the S-CHIP program so that families [...]
[...] Common Sense Political Thought » Archives » What Is Wrong with Them? [...]
[...] Common Sense Political Thought » Archives » What Is Wrong with Them? [...]